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Production changes ..

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50 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Theoretically, one could also add a huge slide release that acted as a thumb-rest. 

And so begins the slippery slope...

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So, can slide stops be disabled?

 

It says only OFM or aftermarket parts are allowed as external mods.  Can you cut/modify OFM parts?

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2 hours ago, LeviSS said:

So, can slide stops be disabled?

 

It says only OFM or aftermarket parts are allowed as external mods.  Can you cut/modify OFM parts?

 

To the first, reading the rules, again, I can't see why not. 

 

To the second, I don't think that there is a practical and reasonable way for an r.o. to keep track of all past and present variations of aftermarket parts for all guns (21.6) & I think that your modified OFM part actually fits the definition of "Aftermarket" in appendix A3. Internal differences are specifically allowed so I assume you are talking about external mods. 

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18 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Theoretically, one could also add a huge slide release that acted as a thumb-rest. 

 

The red under 22.2 says they do not want to allow thumb rests ,  dunno. 

 

Link in the original post, not wanting to cut and paste for me for some reason. 

 

Edited by IHAVEGAS

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The red under 22.2 says they do not want to allow thumb rests ,  dunno. 
 
Link in the original post, not wanting to cut and paste for me for some reason. 
 


So what it’s basically limited 10 2.0 now

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23 minutes ago, mwray said:

 


So what it’s basically limited 10 2.0 now

 

 

Always has been for practical purposes (just my opinion), something like a Tanfo Stock 2 in 40 works well for both.

Just need to decide if you want to go bang bang or pew pew. 

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I still can’t view or find any of the documents to see the rule changes for some reason. Links open to an error page.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Chiefs just caught up with indians. Nothing here that wasn't already being done by almost everybody. Big improvement!!

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I still can’t view or find any of the documents to see the rule changes for some reason. Links open to an error page.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Login to the website, menu tab, then go to BoD minutes

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14 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

The red under 22.2 says they do not want to allow thumb rests ,  dunno. 

 

Link in the original post, not wanting to cut and paste for me for some reason. 

 

but rule 22.2 only applies specifically to grips not controls, no?

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20 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

but rule 22.2 only applies specifically to grips not controls, no?

 

I think you are right about the text, I don't know for sure about the intent or whether the text can be tweaked before the new rules are implemented. 

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Chiefs just caught up with indians. Nothing here that wasn't already being done by almost everybody. Big improvement!!
Bullshit.

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49 minutes ago, wtturn said:
5 hours ago, Brooke said:
Chiefs just caught up with indians. Nothing here that wasn't already being done by almost everybody. Big improvement!!

Bullshit.

Up to my knees!

 

Everyone of my guns is a 100% legal.   My Glocks didn't have undercut trigger guards. Didn't have Apex trigger either. Or any of the other now legal mods. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by B_RAD

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17 hours ago, mwray said:

 


So what it’s basically limited 10 2.0 now

 

I think Limited 10 Lite Minor sounds better!

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I like the change of rules.  I feel this allows the plastic guns to compete at a closer to level field.  Now that the triggers can be modified fully the may even have an advantage since they do not have to deal with the pesky double action first shot.  The steel guns will still have a weight advantage.  Nothing changes at the end of the day though as the Indian is still far more important than the arrow.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Mushki25 said:

I like the change of rules.  I feel this allows the plastic guns to compete at a closer to level field.  Now that the triggers can be modified fully the may even have an advantage since they do not have to deal with the pesky double action first shot.  The steel guns will still have a weight advantage.  Nothing changes at the end of the day though as the Indian is still far more important than the arrow.

 

 

Are the rules supposed to allow for mods so one gun can be level to another gun?  Or should the competitor choose a gun and use it. If they don't like it, choose another. 

 

By your logic, a Glock should be able have weight added to the point that it's the same weight as a tanfo and vice versa. 

 

Not trying to argue with you personally. Just saying. 

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I'm going to preface this by stating "this is only my opinion".

 

I believe that production was intended to be an entry level division.  Something a new guy could shoot with his carry gun or range blaster without getting smoked for shooting limited minor.  The time progressed and shooters began to game the system in place.  People were going out to purchase imported guns for a perceived/real advantage.  Others modifying their guns and still others doing both.  I do not believe this rule change was intended to address this issue but as an added side effect it may have done so.  I think the real issue was trying to enforce the previous rules.  I do not want to invest the time to learn all of the CZ variants nor try to figure out if that extended mag release on a comparators Glock is factory or not.  I believe this new rule set will be easier to enforce and therefore better for the division. 

 

I have been shooting limited for the last 6 months so maybe because I have no skin in the game I care less.  I also shot an M&P in production.  I do like the fact the playing field will be closer to level for the plastic guns.  I can fully understand why the guys spending limited gun money to gain an advantage in production are upset.  I would believe everyone else will like the new rules for the most part.

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I can't speak to why USPSA introduced Production, but IPSC introduced it as a way to grow the sport, 9mm semi-automatic handguns were the most popular type of handgun and they wanted a division where people could compete with an out of the box gun that they likely already had.

 

It was never an 'entry level division' and to the best of my recollection it was never presented as such at the GA when it was introduced in 1999. The original proposal had a 10 round limit but that was voted down by the attendees (a 15 round limit was added years later).

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I believe that production was intended to be an entry level division.  .


This is not, and has never been the case.

It gets repeated often enough because it's convenient revisionist history.

I have the official position papers from the BoD that clarify their intent for production (it's moot now, of course).

The current president and board made an unprincipled and shortsighted decision for the sake of monetizing the division.

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it's still a division where you can compete with typical duty/carry gun out of the box. I don't see the problem.

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9 minutes ago, wtturn said:


 

 

 


This is not, and has never been the case.

It gets repeated often enough because it's convenient revisionist history.

I have the official position papers from the BoD that clarify their intent for production (it's moot now, of course).

The current president and board made an unprincipled and shortsighted decision for the sake of monetizing the division.

 

Could you explain?  I've heard this but to be honest I don't follow all the news/info about this.

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Could you explain?  I've heard this but to be honest I don't follow all the news/info about this.
It's simple from my POV.

They made the decision to ignore the history and intent of production division (the second most popular division) and turned in into yet another full blown mod race division.

The have been low key laying the groundwork for this for a while by issuing private parts approval to various aftermarket manufacturers. It started with the hammer ruling and it would have been followed by a trigger ruling but they decided to do it this way instead.

The party line was unenforceability, but that was just a convenient excuse.

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I disagree with those that think this is about money somehow going to the org. I believe this is about making the rules easily enforced. Everyone keeps saying there was no problem, and they are both wrong and right. They are wrong because there were countless guns that were illegal in one way or another, regardless if the owner knew or intentionally cheated or not. They are right because non of the cheating (running a non rules compliant gun is cheating) mattered. 

 

one rather large example of the failure in the old rules.

The 2014 rule book (current) does not include a rule that allowes grip plugs, after it was published, the previous ruling allowing grip plugs was retired. So at that time grip plugs were not specifically allowed therefore they were illegal. We ran the 2014 and 2015 production national championships under those rules and to the best of my knowledge nobody was bumped to open for a grip plug. If you want to tell me of the 25+% of shooters that were running GLOCKS , none of them were running a grip plug, I have a bridge to sell you. That means at our national championship where everyone goes through chrono with experienced staff, hundreds of shooters were allowed to compete with easily visible illegal equipment. 

 

If that is not an enforcement problem I don't know what is. Did it make a difference no but were they following the rules, no.

 

Until we start Hiring ROs and paying them to study match videos and gun diagrams during the week so they can perform like professionals on the week end we should do our best to keep the rules as easily enforced and explained as we can so the volunteers can do an adequate job.

 

 

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