chaserracer Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Asking for you patience here and hoping to shed some light on an unclear (at least to me) subject... If i use a Magnet on my belt (not attached to any mag pouches) to retain my "load and make ready" magazine, load the gun with it, eject that mag and swap it out with the magazine my last mag pouch (there are no mags on the magnet now and at any point while shooting the stage) am i still within the rules for Production?...I am being told i would be bumped to open since the COF technically starts at the "load and make ready" command and since i am then pulling a magazine from a magnet i am in violation of that rule. I am more curious than anything - i know i don't gain any competitive advantage here, its mostly just a habit formed through dryfire and practice that id like to know if i need to change to not risk getting bumped out of my division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaserracer Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 minute ago, chaserracer said: Asking for you patience here and hoping to shed some light on an unclear (at least to me) subject... If i use a Magnet on my belt (not attached to any mag pouches) to retain my "load and make ready" magazine, load the gun with it, eject that mag and swap it out with the magazine my last mag pouch (there are no mags on the magnet now and at any point while shooting the stage) am i still within the rules for Production?...I am being told i would be bumped to open since the COF technically starts at the "load and make ready" command and since i am then pulling a magazine from a magnet i am in violation of that rule. I am more curious than anything - i know i don't gain any competitive advantage here, its mostly just a habit formed through dryfire and practice that id like to know if i need to change to not risk getting bumped out of my division. This was all i could find in the rule book... 8 Production Division 5.2.7.2 • Each magazine must be contained individually within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) No magnetic pouches allowed in Production, Single Stack or Carry Optic. Edited February 13, 2018 by HoMiE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 This is a good question because it seems that somewhere in the past I read that all of the placement and pouch rules only applied to after the buzzer. For example I shoot single stack and my first pouch is questionable on location but I was told that aslong as I use that one for my make ready mag I was good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaserracer Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 minute ago, mwray said: This is a good question because it seems that somewhere in the past I read that all of the placement and pouch rules only applied to after the buzzer. For example I shoot single stack and my first pouch is questionable on location but I was told that aslong as I use that one for my make ready mag I was good. This is exactly what i was told at my local club as well...Just want to get this sorted before shooting a major match and getting a "surprise your shooting open" talk from the MD/RO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, mwray said: This is a good question because it seems that somewhere in the past I read that all of the placement and pouch rules only applied to after the buzzer. For example I shoot single stack and my first pouch is questionable on location but I was told that aslong as I use that one for my make ready mag I was good. Mall mag pouches must be behind hip bone as per Appendix E3 of rules. RO shouldn’t start you if equipment is not in compliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Mall mag pouches must be behind hip bone as per Appendix E3 of rules. RO shouldn’t start you if equipment is not in compliance. But it’s okay to put your Barney mag back in your pocket as long as you don’t pull it during the COF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Just now, mwray said: But it’s okay to put your Barney mag back in your pocket as long as you don’t pull it during the COF? You can pull bRney mag from your front pocket if you want. Just can’t pull a mag from front pocket after buzzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Just now, mwray said: But it’s okay to put your Barney mag back in your pocket as long as you don’t pull it during the COF? The answer to your question is "maybe". Use of pockets is covered in rule 5.2.4 best to read it as it is 2 paragraphs long... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 You can pull bRney mag from your front pocket if you want. Just can’t pull a mag from front pocket after buzzer. How is that different from an empty mag pouch in front of the hip bone after the buzzer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaserracer Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, ChuckS said: The answer to your question is "maybe". Use of pockets is covered in rule 5.2.4 best to read it as it is 2 paragraphs long... @ChuckS Are you in agreement that using the magnet to retain the make ready magazine is illegal as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, mwray said: How is that different from an empty mag pouch in front of the hip bone after the buzzer? 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the compe titor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s ) f orward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster” . (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to faci litate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, mwray said: How is that different from an empty mag pouch in front of the hip bone after the buzzer? Because Appendix E3 states where equipment can be placed and rule 5.2.4 specified when you can retrieve a magazine from your front pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 minute ago, chaserracer said: @ChuckS Are you in agreement that using the magnet to retain the make ready magazine is illegal as well? The rule says magazines can not be retained by magnetic means. It doesn't say when so, no you can't use it. And the magnet that you can't use had better be located according to the division requirements or the RO should not start you until you move the magnet that you can't use. And let me be "that guy" today: There is no "Load and Make Ready" range command in USPSA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 [mention=400]ChuckS[/mention] Are you in agreement that using the magnet to retain the make ready magazine is illegal as well?According to the rules aslong as you don’t use it for mag retention after the standby command it’s okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Just now, mwray said: According to the rules aslong as you don’t use it for mag retention after the standby command it’s okay. Would you please show us the rule or ruling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcc7x7 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Why mess with it? It's only going to cause a distraction you don't need under match conditions. Summary If I'm your ro you won't be started until your EQUIPMENT is correct per the above stated rules. Simply to much confusion for all involved to be messed with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 If there is a magnet on your belt and it is not being used after “standby” how can it matter? That’s like saying you can’t have turkey feathers on your belt. If it’s not used it doesn’t mattet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFO Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xpierrat Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 23 minutes ago, mwray said: How is that different from an empty mag pouch in front of the hip bone after the buzzer? because with the mag pouch being forward of legal position... on table starts with all mags on table you would gain a advantage in taking a mag from the table and putting it in the illegal pouch loading the gun with another mag and shooting the course with a reload from the questionable mag pouch if you follow this thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 A year ago I asked Troy about a mag pouch that had a magnet it in and if it was legal for single stack. This was his response. Since both single stack and production say you can retain a mag by magnetic means I would say it applies to both. On Dec 18, 2016 5:15 PM, "Troy McManus" <mactiger@eatel.net> wrote: Yes, that's correct. However use of the magnet at any time will move you to Open. It's not restricted to during the course of fire. Ok to have it on your belt, but not ok to retain a magazine with it, period. Troy Sent from my iPad On Dec 18, 2016, at 4:00 PM, Matt wrote: Hello Troy, A shooter and I disagreed on if magazine pouches like this are allowed in single stack. My understanding is if it has a magnet and you use it during the course of fire your in open. Is this the correct way to apply the rule? I am aware that Appendix 5D says "Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 because with the mag pouch being forward of legal position... on table starts with all mags on table you would gain a advantage in taking a mag from the table and putting it in the illegal pouch loading the gun with another mag and shooting the course with a reload from the questionable mag pouch if you follow this thinkingAnd at that moment you would be bumped to open. If you didn’t use it you should be fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xpierrat Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 The Ro has enough to be concerned with with out adding "which pouch did he stick that mag into" on courses that have mags on table starts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I asked this same question several years back, right after magnets became illegal in Production... while it is not against the rules to have a magnet on your belt, it is illegal to use it to retain a magazine (and a bad idea to leave it on your belt). Picture this, unloaded start, you grab mags and stuff in your pouches, one slips and sticks to the magnet, welcome to open...or you fumble them on a table/barrel/rocking chair/jack in the box, and one falls off the object and sticks to the magnet...welcome to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaserracer Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 18 minutes ago, Kraj said: A year ago I asked Troy about a mag pouch that had a magnet it in and if it was legal for single stack. This was his response. Since both single stack and production say you can retain a mag by magnetic means I would say it applies to both. On Dec 18, 2016 5:15 PM, "Troy McManus" <mactiger@eatel.net> wrote: Yes, that's correct. However use of the magnet at any time will move you to Open. It's not restricted to during the course of fire. Ok to have it on your belt, but not ok to retain a magazine with it, period. Troy Sent from my iPad On Dec 18, 2016, at 4:00 PM, Matt wrote: Hello Troy, A shooter and I disagreed on if magazine pouches like this are allowed in single stack. My understanding is if it has a magnet and you use it during the course of fire your in open. Is this the correct way to apply the rule? I am aware that Appendix 5D says "Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means." This is enough right here to confirm that I do not want to have a magnet on my belt in this division regardless of how the rules are read or interpreted by the individual. If the DNROI says no, well then it's a hard NO in my book. Thanks to everyone for their your input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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