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Rudukai13

For CSASS - Why not a Bullpup?

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I recognize this may not be the best forum to pose this question considering the tilt towards competition shooting as opposed to practical/combat use. That being said... 

I've been doing a lot of reading on HK's new M110A1 CSASS rifle, and the CSASS competition itself. My question is fairly simple - If the RFP was to create a semi-auto sniper rifle that's as compact and portable as possible, why not go with a bullpup design? 

Any ideas or thoughts?

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Bullpups (and terrible triggers)  ...   accuracy demanded for sniping ???   

 

Hmmmm.   Not sure they go together ???

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There are a bunch of sniper rifles built for precision work in a bullpup format. I will concede trigger quality would suffer.

 

But keep in mind the CSASS is meant to be more of the gap-fill between the standard-issue medium-range rifles and extreme-long-range bolt action true sniper rifles

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The Desert Tech MDR is actually what got me thinking about using a 308 bullpup as a compact semi-auto long-range platform. It probably doesn't provide as much benefit for competition, but in the practical/fighting sense and particularly what seemed to be the goal of the CSASS development program, I'm honestly a bit surprised they didn't go with a bullpup of some type

Edited by Rudukai13

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Acronym for Compact Semi-Auto Sniper System. It is a US Army program that came out of the AARs from AFG and IRQ for the need for a shorter compact sniper rifle. KAC had produced such a rifle for certain SOF units for some time.

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Replacement for the Knight's Armament M110 SASS; https://www.knightarmco.com/12016/shop/military/m110

 

The CSASS program looked to replace the aging M110 with a rifle that would be more compact, lighter, quieter when suppressed, and more accurate. I believe about a year ago it was announced HK won the program with what is now called the M110A1, a variant of their 417 rifle; http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/01/18/hk-shows-off-m110a1-csass-compact-sniper-rifle-mg4-mg5-shot-17/

 

To my knowledge, all of the entrants to the competition were based on standard AR-pattern 308 rifles (except Sig who built a 308 MCX platform that will likely be available commercially at some point in the next couple years). I'm just wondering why, given the parameters of the military's request, there wasn't a single entrant in a bullpup pattern...Seems to me it's a great way to get a more compact, (potentially) lighter platform, without sacrificing accuracy potential or velocity of the round

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On 2/8/2018 at 7:31 PM, Hi-Power Jack said:

Bullpups (and terrible triggers)  ...   accuracy demanded for sniping ???   

 

Hmmmm.   Not sure they go together ???

That's not the case at all.

 

One reason I think they went with a typical SR-25 design is look at the company/history of design backing it. I love my Desert Techs but how long was it between announcement and shipping of MDRs? Do you think that DT could handle the workload of producing MDRs when they can't even meet consumer demands?

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Valid point, but there are plenty of other manufacturers that would have the capacity to meet demand of and technical skill to produce a bullpup that would meet all the requirements.

 

Perhaps the better question to ask is not why the ultimate winning design wasn't a bullpup, but why (to my knowledge) not even a single entrant was put forward in a bullpup pattern?

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There are other advantages to an AR type rifle for a CSASS/SASS.

 

1.) The manual of arms is nearly identical to the M16/M4 series. Minimizing the amount of additional training required.

 

2.) Even though a larger platform with an optic. It doesn't readily identify the sniper/designated marksman as being different from other soldiers as readily as a bullpup, bolt action or other rifle platform. The enemy loves to take out snipers/designated marksmen. The are rightly identified as more dangerous. If you can lower their visual profile in any way the better for the sniper/designated marksman.

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42 minutes ago, PatriotMRD said:

Even though a larger platform with an optic. It doesn't readily identify the sniper/designated marksman as being different from other soldiers as readily as a bullpup, bolt action or other rifle platform. The enemy loves to take out snipers/designated marksmen. The are rightly identified as more dangerous. If you can lower their visual profile in any way the better for the sniper/designated marksman.

 

That makes a lot of sense. I guess I wasn't thinking of it from the perspective of a soldier being engaged in a gunfight. Goes to show my lack of experience on a two-way range...:unsure:

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On 2/10/2018 at 2:24 PM, PatriotMRD said:

There are other advantages to an AR type rifle for a CSASS/SASS.

 

1.) The manual of arms is nearly identical to the M16/M4 series. Minimizing the amount of additional training required.

 

 

It's this. Plus, bullpup triggers are usually terrible, and none of the companies in on the rfp have a history of building them. Much better to submit a mostly off the shelf design than invest the R&D in something new. 

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