So these days for 9mm first reloading - single-stage or progressive

[9x45]

Go with a Dillon 550. Put a light above the bullet seating station and pay attention to which head stamp you use. Freedom Munitions, IMT, AmmoLoad and MaxxTech all use the same junk stepped case so throw those away. The Square Deal is also fine for pistol, and it is faster than a turret. 

 

The absolute fastest and easiest way for a newbie reloader to start is find some one at your local USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge match that will set up you. 50 years of experience in 5 minutes and you are cranking out rounds without all the newbie worries. I've set many new guys up, and it saves them from alot of beginner mistakes. You can't know that stuff from reading a loader manual or watching you tubes.

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 8:36 AM, Chris Keen said:

You all don't sort your brass BEFORE it goes into your case feeders? 

 

I look inside every piece of brass for dirt, mud, rocks, .22 shells, etc. Then I weed out the .40s and .380s .  

 

I load on a SDB and do all the above with each piece of brass, AS I LOAD it into the SDB.    

[Hi-Power Jack]

3 hours ago, 57K said:

 

If we took a survey of past SDB owners, a great majority of them have moved up to the 550 or 650.  

 

I've been loading on my SDB for 20 years - don't see any reason to move "up" to a 550 or 650.    

[RJH]

3 hours ago, 57K said:

 

Square Deal B faster than a turret? That sounds like an assumption based on not knowing the differences of the various turret presses. Only one turret press really affords semi-progressive loading, and put together to take advantage of higher production rate, the LEE Classic Turret doesn't give anything up to the SDB.

 

If we took a survey of past SDB owners, a great majority of them have moved up to the 550 or 650. What do you do with the SDB then if you don't keep it? Its dies will only work in a SDB press. The Classic Turret offers several advantages, not the least of which is ability to load precision rounds single-stage if you do go blue later, and then the dies you bought will work in the blue press. As far as diagnosing problems one station at a time, as well as learning what occurs at each particular die station, I wouldn't waste my time with any blue press less capable than the 650.

 

Good pic, BTW, but not one of those presses have top-dead-center, not even the Rockchucker. REDDING presses have it as well as the LEE Classic Cast SS and Classic turret, meaning that your OACL variations won't be great enough to bother adding a means to control it, i.e. a micrometer seating die.When I load JHPs and the better Poly-coated, if OACL variation exceeds +/- .002", my concern is about the uniformity of the bullet, not the presses ability to control it since you remove all of the flexing inherent to any press.

 

 

Serious question, have you ever loaded on a SDB or 550?  I have loaded on all 3 of these presses and most is what you are saying is BS.  NO an LCT is not as fast as an SDB or a 550 and , 550s can and do load very accurate ammo, .5 moa is easily doable and we quit there cause that was good enough for us.  That said an LTC is a good press, and a press that will load fine ammo, but it gives up about 30% in speed over 100 rounds to both the SDB and the 550, and the more you load at one sitting the bigger that gap becomes.  Sit down and load 500 in one sitting on each press and get back to me. 

[10X]

On 1/31/2018 at 3:07 PM, 57K said:

 

Try this, look at the posts on THIS forum where someone is having a problem with a handload and 99.9% of the time they're using a progressive machine.

 

That may be,  but 99.9% of the total rounds being fired by users on this forum are probably loaded on a progressive machine as well...so progressives will account for most of the problematic loads even if the load quality is the same or better than loads made on a single stage press.

[Sarge]

56 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

Serious question, have you ever loaded on a SDB or 550?  I have loaded on all 3 of these presses and most is what you are saying is BS.  NO an LCT is not as fast as an SDB or a 550 and , 550s can and do load very accurate ammo, .5 moa is easily doable and we quit there cause that was good enough for us.  That said an LTC is a good press, and a press that will load fine ammo, but it gives up about 30% in speed over 100 rounds to both the SDB and the 550, and the more you load at one sitting the bigger that gap becomes.  Sit down and load 500 in one sitting on each press and get back to me. 

[9x45]

57K, I have loaded for over 50 years, how about you? Any auto progressive is faster than any turret. I've run many turrets before I got my first Dillon 550 in 1986. 

[HCH]

Soooo.. have you actually ever used a progressive? Most everything stated seems like it comes from someone that has no experience. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by HCH

[Guy Neill]

I'm not certain I understand the emphasis on top dead center.  As long as the press stops at, or before, TDC, there is no particular problem.

 

Problems arise if the press goes past TDC.

 

Trying to obtain TDC center on every press means that, with tolerances, some will go past.  Having experienced at least one press that did go past, you don't want that.  So, stopping short works, and leaves no real disadvantage for our purposes.

 

Unless I'm missing something.

[GrumpyOne]

11 minutes ago, Guy Neill said:

I'm not certain I understand the emphasis on top dead center.  As long as the press stops at, or before, TDC, there is no particular problem.

 

Problems arise if the press goes past TDC.

 

Trying to obtain TDC center on every press means that, with tolerances, some will go past.  Having experienced at least one press that did go past, you don't want that.  So, stopping short works, and leaves no real disadvantage for our purposes.

 

Unless I'm missing something.

Thanks, Guy! I think that pretty much sums it up.

[RangerTrace]

I had never even heard of Top Dead Center until today........

[RJH]

57K, so how many rounds have you loaded on a Dillon SBD or 550? 

[GrumpyOne]

1 hour ago, 57K said:

 

Yep, you are. Without a mechanical stop, there is no T-D-C to go past, nor stop short of. You set your dies at T-D-C and the flexing action inherent to the mechanical moving parts is essentially eliminated. The ram stops at the same exact point every time while the shellholder is centered in the same location, hence, Top-Dead-Center. Without some tolerances and flexing, a press would be pretty difficult to operate, regardless of type.

 

A press without it may make you believe that it stops at the same point every time, but given the tolerances added in combination from all of the moving parts of the press, including the tool-head, that would be damn near impossible, wouldn't it. The result from the allowed flexing is greater OACL variation which some guys buy a mic seating die to control. And since your cases are stopping at different height within a taper crimp die, would you expect that your handloads are all getting the same amount of crimp?

 

REDDING tools tend to cost a bit more, and one reason I believe why they don't offer a progressive press. It would certainly cost more than a comparable Dillon, while the targeted market seems to be people who don't even know what T-D-C is.REDDING most certainly does. Unfortunately, this likely means that LEE may offer the first progressive with T-D-C if they adapt the Classic Turret.

FYI, a Dillon RL550B has a TDC stop machined into it, and has for years.

[Guy Neill]

This topic has wandered so far astray, it should be closed.

 

I don;t seem to have that ability these days.

 

Hopefully one of the moderators will lock it.

 

I hope the original poster got some benefit.

 

 

 

[GrumpyOne]

And there is another just like it on the other side. You cannot go past TDC with a Dillon RL550B.

[RJH]

22 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

And there is another just like it on the other side. You cannot go past TDC with a Dillon RL550B.

 

HO.....LEE.....SHIT.   I just read about 7 million words about how this wasn't and true and I couldn't  possibly load accurate ammo at anything more than a snails pace and you expect to overturn that with a measly 3 pics, worth only 3000 words? 

 

This is why I hate the internet, the OP ask a seemingly benign question about a good press for USPSA and 9mm and we get derailed and apparently lied to by some body who speaks with all these years of authority, and turns out he was full of it.  Here is the apparently obligatory smiley face that says, I will be a smartass in my answers, talk about other people being stupid and expect them be OK with it :-)

 

Thanks for the pics Grumpy, that is funny business right there.  That is the part I love about the internet ;-)

 

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by RJH

[RangerTrace]

Who cares about the 550, does the 650 have one??  I don't want to move my cars our of the garage to find out!!

[GrumpyOne]

19 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

Who cares about the 550, does the 650 have one??  I don't want to move my cars our of the garage to find out!!

As I don't own a 650, i had to look it up, but yes, a 650 does have a TDC stop machined into it as well. Check out page 48 of the XL650 owners manual and you can see the TDC stop. The link arm contacts the stop at the bottom of the stroke.

[GrumpyOne]

While we are on the subject of debunking myths about progressive presses, I thought I'd share this. I have an older RL550B, no case or bullet feeder. My load is 3.5 of N320 with a Precision Delta 147 FMJ @ 1.150. As a test, i just went out to my reloading shed and loaded 100 rounds, without rushing. It took 12 minutes,  and that includes filling (1) primer fill tube (for those that don't want to do the math, that would be 500 rounds an hour).  The brass was already cleaned and lubed (lubed with a lanolin/alcohol mixture), and placed on the right hand side of the machine, the bullets on the left. I have a mirror and light set up so I can see into each and every case as I set the bullet. I randomly pulled 10 completed rounds from the bin afterwards and measured with my digital General Caliper (in which i installed a brand new battery before taking said measurements). The most extreme variance in OAL that was found was .0007. 

 

I have loaded that same load in less than 8 minutes per 100 going for speed. 

 

Personally, I don't think anyone would worry about an OAL variance of .0007,  nor do I think anyone can load faster on a turret press than my non rushed 12 minute 100 rounds. 

 

So, to the OP, I started reloading on this same press 15 years ago, i have never loaded a squib, i have never loaded a double charge, i have never broken a decapping pin. The 550 can and does make quality ammo, as long as the operator does their part. 

[HCH]

32 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

While we are on the subject of debunking myths about progressive presses, I thought I'd share this. I have an older RL550B, no case or bullet feeder. My load is 3.5 of N320 with a Precision Delta 147 FMJ @ 1.150. As a test, i just went out to my reloading shed and loaded 100 rounds, without rushing. It took 12 minutes,  and that includes filling (1) primer fill tube (for those that don't want to do the math, that would be 500 rounds an hour).  The brass was already cleaned and lubed (lubed with a lanolin/alcohol mixture), and placed on the right hand side of the machine, the bullets on the left. I have a mirror and light set up so I can see into each and every case as I set the bullet. I randomly pulled 10 completed rounds from the bin afterwards and measured with my digital General Caliper (in which i installed a brand new battery before taking said measurements). The most extreme variance in OAL that was found was .0007. 

 

I have loaded that same load in less than 8 minutes per 100 going for speed. 

 

Personally, I don't think anyone would worry about an OAL variance of .0007,  nor do I think anyone can load faster on a turret press than my non rushed 12 minute 100 rounds. 

 

So, to the OP, I started reloading on this same press 15 years ago, i have never loaded a squib, i have never loaded a double charge, i have never broken a decapping pin. The 550 can and does make quality ammo, as long as the operator does their part. 

 

Yup

[RJH]

.

Edited February 11, 2018 by RJH

[GrumpyOne]

Cast or machined, it is a TDC stop. An SDB cost nowhere near $1k, nor does an RL550C, or even a 650 (unless you add all the accoutrements). 

[ddc]

In an attempt to get back on topic...

 

I started with a Lee Classic Turret and did just fine but eventually got tired of four lever pulls per round. Switched to a 650 and very happy with it.

 

The Lee machine is available at the lower end of the cost spectrum. It is a great introductory press but has functionality far past that.

 

It is a flexible machine as it can be used single stage and mine is still set up next to the 650.  It is easier to develop loads on than the 650 (for me!) and I can deal with the occasional problematic round that the 650 process makes difficult.

 

I'm glad I had that experience before I moved to the 650 but apparently plenty of people start with the 650 and do just fine.

 

I would think that if you start with a 650 having a coach available would be a good thing.

[CTJer]

As a new reloader I bought a Hornady Classic single stage about a month ago. 

 

My the end of this month, I will have a 650 mounted to the bench next to it.  

 

 

I Shoot USPSA, not just a box every couple weeks, so it was pretty much already written.  

 

 

 

I’m not mad I bought the single stage.  I feel better about learning the process.  

[ddc]

With respect only to throughput comparisons...

 

Back when I only had a Lee Classic Turret I did several tests where I tried to determine how many rounds per hour I could load.

My test was only for 5 minutes; not for a full hour.

At the max rate I could be sure I was doing everything right I was able to load 25 rounds in 5 minutes on several occasions.

I'm sure that number could be easily surpassed by someone younger and more energetic.

That extrapolates out to 300 rounds/hour.

HOWEVER: There is no way I could keep that rate of production going for a full hour!

That was the best I could do for 5 minutes and I was glad when the time was up.

It wasn't the physical demands that would be my limitation as much as the mental concentration making sure I'm not screwing up.

I would burn out quickly trying to replicate that time after time.

 

With the 650 totally different mind set. An actual real world 300 rounds per hour would be ridiculously slow.

It's a walk in the park if for no other reason than 300 lever pulls vs. 1200.

I've easily exceed that on many occasions including time to load primer tubes, make a pot of coffee and take a pee.

 

I got to the point where I dreaded reloading with the LCT. With the 650 I can catch up whenever I've got 30 minutes to spare.

Edited February 15, 2018 by ddc