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Dot vs irons


Dhudgins525

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So I've shot iron sights predominantly for 2 years and recently started practicing with a dot on a gun identical to my iron sight gun. Shot one classifier match and missed A class by .7%. (C in production and limited) The dot is so much more accurate at speed and so much easier to transition from target to target for me so it's really got me wanting to try and bring my skills with the iron sight gun up to that level. The problem I'm having with irons is that transition times are significantly slower for me and I know it has something to do with vision but I'm getting nothing in practice as far as a break through. I'm hoping someone here may understand what I'm experiencing and have a piece of advice that is the missing link. Does your focus stay at the distance of the front sight on transitions or shift to the depth of the target? 

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It should always stay at the distance of the front sight. No reason to shift to the depth of the target, you shouldn't need to look at the target ever.

 

The one thing I noticed when shooting with a dot is that it is a LOT easier to call your shots which is what I suspect you're doing with the dot and not with irons.

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So when transitioning from target to target I should just be trying to align the sight on the center of the target without having precise location on the target to align it? I feel like I'm almost trying to be to precise with iron sights vs just shooting at the center of the target with the dot. It's funny that you said this

11 minutes ago, CDRODA396 said:

As SlvrDragon50 said, "Follow the bouncing sight!"  

because when I'm shooting the dot gun it reminds me of a red ball bouncing on the target and between the targets. Also looking back at video after reading this

 

28 minutes ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

It should always stay at the distance of the front sight. No reason to shift to the depth of the target, you shouldn't need to look at the target ever.

 

The one thing I noticed when shooting with a dot is that it is a LOT easier to call your shots which is what I suspect you're doing with the dot and not with irons.

I saw that there isn't any hesitation with the dot gun after the second shot where with the iron sights it's like I'm waiting to get a 3rd sight picture before I transition. I'm guessing that is subconscious with irons since I've been shooting them so much longer whereas with the dot I'm letting my vision dictate everything. Seem sensible?

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1 minute ago, Dhudgins525 said:

So when transitioning from target to target I should just be trying to align the sight on the center of the target without having precise location on the target to align it? I feel like I'm almost trying to be to precise with iron sights vs just shooting at the center of the target with the dot. It's funny that you said this

because when I'm shooting the dot gun it reminds me of a red ball bouncing on the target and between the targets. Also looking back at video after reading this

 

I saw that there isn't any hesitation with the dot gun after the second shot where with the iron sights it's like I'm waiting to get a 3rd sight picture before I transition. I'm guessing that is subconscious with irons since I've been shooting them so much longer whereas with the dot I'm letting my vision dictate everything. Seem sensible?

Sorry, I mixed up shooting same target vs transitioning to another target. I interpreted you were looking back to the target you just shot before moving on.

 

It sounds like you are trying to shoot the first shot on target like bullseye? Someone else more experienced can chime in, but I just aim center mass. I have no clue where the perforations exactly are on the target, and the time you spend trying to get perfectly center is not worth it. I move my eyes to the next target, but as I bring my gun on target, my eyes are shifting back to the front sight focal plane. With a dot, you pretty much just  keep your eye focus on the target, and the dot is on the same focal plane which removes a step in focus transition.

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Nah I'm not to bad about "turkey necking" or trying to see my hits on the target. I've actually learned to trust the sights and go but it's still nowhere near as quick as with the dot. I believe not really knowing how to call my shot with iron sights may the culprit. It's amazing how much easier it is with the dot and how difficult it is FOR ME to do with iron sights. I feel like there is something that I'm not seeing in order to call my shots and now our conversation has got me wondering if I'm losing my sight focus to early on the second shot in an effort to rush to the next target.

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3 minutes ago, Dhudgins525 said:

Nah I'm not to bad about "turkey necking" or trying to see my hits on the target. I've actually learned to trust the sights and go but it's still nowhere near as quick as with the dot. I believe not really knowing how to call my shot with iron sights may the culprit. It's amazing how much easier it is with the dot and how difficult it is FOR ME to do with iron sights. I feel like there is something that I'm not seeing in order to call my shots and now our conversation has got me wondering if I'm losing my sight focus to early on the second shot in an effort to rush to the next target.

It's not easy. Sometimes I feel like I can call my shots on my iron sights, but most of the time I'm off. With a dot, I felt like I was calling shots within the first box of ammo.

 

That is one possibility. The alternative thought would be that because you have trouble calling your shots, you are more hesitant with your transitions, trying to process if you did indeed hit the A or not.

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That's makes alot sense! When I started playing with the dot gun it was an exciting moment because I was able to hit whatever I shot at with confidence and made up shots with ease because I knew where that little red ball bounced from. It also showed me how bad my trigger control was as I could see the dot move right at the time the shot broke or the instant before it broke so it has helped my shooting alot but ultimately I want to be that confident with iron sights also. Ive gotta figure out this vision thing or focus thing or whatever it is because I'm definitely not as confident with irons especially on partials or hardcover targets. Shot calling is so crucial but also so freaking difficult to do or understand. 

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Sounds like you need to go do Brian’s Transition Drill.

 

Also search youtube for JJ Racaza flatlining, no need to wait for second shot to come back down into target. As soon as second shot happens and you see dot/sight lift, call the shot and then move to next target. 

 

 

Edited by HoMiE
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1 hour ago, Dhudgins525 said:

That's makes alot sense! When I started playing with the dot gun it was an exciting moment because I was able to hit whatever I shot at with confidence and made up shots with ease because I knew where that little red ball bounced from. It also showed me how bad my trigger control was as I could see the dot move right at the time the shot broke or the instant before it broke so it has helped my shooting alot but ultimately I want to be that confident with iron sights also. Ive gotta figure out this vision thing or focus thing or whatever it is because I'm definitely not as confident with irons especially on partials or hardcover targets. Shot calling is so crucial but also so freaking difficult to do or understand. 

This is why I decided to get a DPP for my P07. I know it's a different platform, but I'm hoping to refine my trigger technique and transfer it to my production shooting. A buddy of mine was ROing and told me after I shot my stage that my front sight was moving all over the place even though in dryfire my front sight stays still.

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On 1/30/2018 at 5:34 PM, Dhudgins525 said:

. Does your focus stay at the distance of the front sight on transitions or shift to the depth of the target? 

 

 

My focus stays on the targets the entire time.  I still see the sights, but they are not in focus. 

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13 minutes ago, StratRider said:

I am still having difficulty calling my shots with irons and although I prefer to shoot production, I wonder if using a dot for a while to assist with shot calling itself would be helpful or hurtful.

I would say helpful or at the very least build confidence with irons. I just sent my P07 slide off to get a DPP milled to learn how to call my shots and then hopefully the skill translates to my S2 shooting.

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On 2/4/2018 at 3:58 PM, Supermoto said:

 

 

My focus stays on the targets the entire time.  I still see the sights, but they are not in focus. 

If I did my research right you are a GM so that definitely confirms my theory that this is what the top shooters do. How much time of the dry fire/live fire mix does it take to do this efficiently? Is it subconscious for you now?

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11 minutes ago, Dhudgins525 said:

If I did my research right you are a GM so that definitely confirms my theory that this is what the top shooters do. How much time of the dry fire/live fire mix does it take to do this efficiently? Is it subconscious for you now?

 

Yep GM, but everyone is going to be different, but generally for easy shots inside 10-12y using a target focus will be faster and just as accurate, some people will transition to more and more of a front sight focus the further they get out.  I stay target focus  all the way to 100 yards.   I found that shooting small targets like a shotgun shell at 25 yards, If I used a front sight focus, I could no longer see the shell.  If I can't see it, I can't hit it.  With a target focus, I could see the shell and enough of my sights to know if they were properly lined up. 

 

Target focus always seemed to be the more natural way to go, I have to consciously think to get my eyes to focus on the front sight.  So I don't know how long or how much dry fire live fire it will take to get it to be natural if you are a front sight shooter. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Supermoto said:

 

Yep GM, but everyone is going to be different, but generally for easy shots inside 10-12y using a target focus will be faster and just as accurate, some people will transition to more and more of a front sight focus the further they get out.  I stay target focus  all the way to 100 yards.   I found that shooting small targets like a shotgun shell at 25 yards, If I used a front sight focus, I could no longer see the shell.  If I can't see it, I can't hit it.  With a target focus, I could see the shell and enough of my sights to know if they were properly lined up. 

 

Target focus always seemed to be the more natural way to go, I have to consciously think to get my eyes to focus on the front sight.  So I don't know how long or how much dry fire live fire it will take to get it to be natural if you are a front sight shooter. 

 

 

That's probably the funniest part of this whole conversation is that I'm not really sure if I'm a front sight shooter or not yet. I just know with the dot and not having 3 objects to be concerned with it is a whole lot easier to shoot quickly with acceptable accuracy. I was dry firing tonight and trying to see the targets and then the relationship between the front and rear sight along with their position on the target is difficult. I think I'm understanding what it is that you're saying though...its like seeing the sights on the way to seeing the target...maybe. I'm gonna work on this more this week and see what I can come up with. Thank you for the replies and information and hopefully I can learn more from this. 

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I think I'm finally beginning to understand what you are talking about and how it ties into the visual patience topic that I've read so much about. My gun has an all black rear and .100 front fiber optic sight so I think if I try putting this into practice I can make it become the new normal. It really seems that the more your vision skills increase so does your classification and shooting skills. I'm finally starting to realize the importance of peripheral vision and maintaining a wide field of view while shooting a COF also. The hard part is avoiding looking over the sights or not seeing "through" them at all. That seems to happen when I'm trying to rush a shot. Has that been you're experience also?

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Vision is very important.  One of my friends used to say, "shooting at the speed of sight".  You need to see what you need to see for what you are doing, narrow pin point focus on the target for the shot, wide focus for transitions and movement. 

 

When I rush my shots, its a lack of follow thru on my second shots.  My eyes will start to transition to the next target before the shot breaks, so the gun starts to follow, causing a horizontal stringing of shots.  The gun shoots right where I'm looking, I just need to make sure I'm looking at the right spot

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That is great info when I really think about what you're saying. That's why people hit no shoots when they say "dang I was really trying not to hit that no shoot". If they're looking at it they shoot it. I've experienced this stringing you're talking about before but never thought it might be because my eyes didn't give a shot the attention that I should have. That's most likely the reason for me missing steel on the first shot. I believe my vision is getting better but there is still alot of room for improvement. If you don't mind me asking, how much dry fire/live fire practice does it take to maintain a GM level of shooting? Also the advice of shooting at the speed of seeing is great advice. We can't accurately shoot faster than we are seeing! 

Edited by Dhudgins525
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A red dot for me is optimal. I have cross dominance (right hand/left eye), so with irons I have to can't my head and lately my vision in low light for the sights has been lacking. I moved to a red dot and now everything is clear. My focus goes to the target and my right (non dominant) picks up the dot. The sight itself is out of focus, so now I'm looking at a clear target with a dot on it, almost as if it were a laser. Just have to get faster and better with follow ups.

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To maintain GM level, no idea. I basically worked to make GM and then stopped shooting and started a family.  When I do occasionally get time to practice, I don't feel like I have lost that much, since the game is some much more mental than physical.  Once I get my grip strength correct, so the sight or dot tracks correctly, I feel pretty good about how I'm shooting, draws and reloads are a slightly slower though

 

Getting to GM from M took more effort, refinement than getting from D to M.  Dry firing every day and practicing once a week, with match a week too.  Getting from D to M was basically learning to do things the right way and then adding speed while keeping the fundamental solid.  GM was making it all perfect all the time.  The most important thing is good practice, not wasting time and ammo on either doing something incorrectly, but don't be afraid to try something different to see if it works.  Then make every practice difficult.  If you having a lot of fun and thinking your shooting well, then your practice isn't hard enough

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Supermoto said:

To maintain GM level, no idea. I basically worked to make GM and then stopped shooting and started a family.  When I do occasionally get time to practice, I don't feel like I have lost that much, since the game is some much more mental than physical.  Once I get my grip strength correct, so the sight or dot tracks correctly, I feel pretty good about how I'm shooting, draws and reloads are a slightly slower though

 

Getting to GM from M took more effort, refinement than getting from D to M.  Dry firing every day and practicing once a week, with match a week too.  Getting from D to M was basically learning to do things the right way and then adding speed while keeping the fundamental solid.  GM was making it all perfect all the time.  The most important thing is good practice, not wasting time and ammo on either doing something incorrectly, but don't be afraid to try something different to see if it works.  Then make every practice difficult.  If you having a lot of fun and thinking your shooting well, then your practice isn't hard enough

 

 

Thank you for this info! I'm a B in CO and C in limited and Production but just started shooting Production about 3 months ago. Working hard to get better in production as it requires better planning and execution which is what I enjoy. 

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