Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

United Multi-Gun League Rule Clarification


Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, gerritm said:

Not sure I would want to shoot a 340 yard target with a PCC

 

 

According to Strelok, my drop at 340 yards is 179".  Its no longer a matter of skill but rather luck.

 

It looks like other than "PCC Only", you will need to bring a rifle to a match to be even remotely competitive.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/31/2018 at 6:37 PM, ziebart said:

To the OP, yes changing firearms/optics are allowed provided you do not change caliber. I don't know how much advantage it really provides.
 

 

Put a 6" plate at 100 yards and with a red dot I'm just wasting ammo.  Add a 1-4x scope to the equation and I can do OK.

 

On bay stages where everything is less than 40 yards, I do much better with the dot.

 

Being able to optimize guns as needed with UML rules is a big plus for me.

 

I had hopes that in 2 gun and 2x4 you were permitted to use a PCC as one of the guns and shot the PCC targets.  That would open up two more division for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Put a 6" plate at 100 yards and with a red dot I'm just wasting ammo.  Add a 1-4x scope to the equation and I can do OK.

 

On bay stages where everything is less than 40 yards, I do much better with the dot.

 

Being able to optimize guns as needed with UML rules is a big plus for me.

 

I had hopes that in 2 gun and 2x4 you were permitted to use a PCC as one of the guns and shot the PCC targets.  That would open up two more division for me.

When practicing for my first pcc match we shot skinny sammies at 100 yds with the Eotech XPS,  wasn't that hard to hit at least 3/5. 

I sure don't understand why so many PPC'ers think 100 yds is near impossible ? ? ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, toothandnail said:

When practicing for my first pcc match we shot skinny sammies at 100 yds with the Eotech XPS,  wasn't that hard to hit at least 3/5. 

I sure don't understand why so many PPC'ers think 100 yds is near impossible ? ? ?

 

Not to say its impossible, but we cannot get .223 accuracy out of a 9mm at 100 yards.  I think 2 MOA accuracy or worse with a 9mm PCC is the norm.  Again, not impossible, just harder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9mm is not 223 in power or accuracy. I am not arguing that it should be done, just that it has. If someone wanted to shoot 2 gun with a 9mm pistol and a 9mm rifle they could, but they have to understand that choosing 9mm for their "rifle" has some disadvantages. 

 

I will admit that I have not put a red dot vs 1x scope on the clock in a while. Practicing short range (pistol) distance with my rifle is not something I do. I did try it once with a 45* offset dot and it was not measurably faster for me compared to my 1-6x Razor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think some of the difficulty comes with the red dots and ammo we are using for PCC. I have an 8moa C-more and she is shooting a 6MOA Vortex Venom. Pretty much covers the plate or skinny at 100 yards. If you turn it down it helps, but still shooting low PF ammo there is a lot of bullet movement at 100 and beyond. Pretty hard to see where you are hitting at that distance to adjust. If you were going to shoot much at 80-100 with a PCC I think a scope is the way to go. Regular USPSA matches the red dot distances are no problem.

 

gerritm 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

I can easily shoot a 1.5" group at 100 yards with my 9mm PCC using a 3moa Dot. If i put a magnified optic on there i could probably tighten it up a bit. I can easily shoot a 1.5" group at 100 yards with my 9mm PCC using a 3moa Dot. If i put a magnified optic on there i could probably tighten it up a bit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

There are a bunch of folks doing so. From what I've seen, rifle/ PCC is most of the stages. A person may be better off if the steel is small to use shotgun, but PCC holds so many more rounds I think it's a wash.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Completely fine, UML is built for gamers, by gamers! Nothing against them!

 

One thing I don't like is that PCC only and 2 gun do end up ruining overall results when you have clay targets they don't have to shoot at.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Timmeh said:

Completely fine, UML is built for gamers, by gamers! Nothing against them!

 

One thing I don't like is that PCC only and 2 gun do end up ruining overall results when you have clay targets they don't have to shoot at.

There's no such thing as "Overall Results" 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

There's no such thing as "Overall Results" 

So, when they choose high category winners, we take the highest percent in division, right?

So if you have Tac, Open, Irons, Heavy, 2 gun, 2x4, PCC...that's 7 divisions! The best guys shoot Tac and Open, maybe 2x4, of course the AMU likes to shotgun spread the divisions sometimes, nothing against that, but that leaves not a lot of competition for the other smaller divisions.

 

What happens is if you took a junior who shot 80% of a decent PCC shooter, they wouldn't beat the other junior shooting 80% of Daniel Horner, Greg Jordan, etc.

 

If they have OVERALL, like in most 3 gun, irons, heavy, tac, open, all thrown together, there is measurable results, because they all shot the same stage, and you take the high category winners off overall results.

Edited by Timmeh
Spelling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Timmeh said:

If they have OVERALL, like in most 3 gun, irons, heavy, tac, open, all thrown together, there is measurable results, because they all shot the same stage, and you take the high category winners off overall results.

 

There's no way to ever compare scores across divisions in UML because the shooting challenges are so different. Someone shooting 2-gun never has to manually load a shotgun, and every time they do a sub 2-second reload, they get 20-23 more rounds on tap. Not to mention that they often have totally different target arrays - 2 gunners could be exempt from all clays, for example.  2 gun winds up beating all the 3 gun divisions almost every time, except sometimes Open. The 3 gunners would go bananas if the winning division of the 3 gun match was 2 gun.  Simply put, there is no HOA in UML rules and it would be foolish to even bother trying to compare divisions, even for funsies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, ClangClang said:

 

There's no way to ever compare scores across divisions in UML because the shooting challenges are so different. Someone shooting 2-gun never has to manually load a shotgun, and every time they do a sub 2-second reload, they get 20-23 more rounds on tap. Not to mention that they often have totally different target arrays - 2 gunners could be exempt from all clays, for example.  2 gun winds up beating all the 3 gun divisions almost every time, except sometimes Open. The 3 gunners would go bananas if the winning division of the 3 gun match was 2 gun.  Simply put, there is no HOA in UML rules and it would be foolish to even bother trying to compare divisions, even for funsies.

I understand, and for funsies it doesn't matter, but my point comes down to how they award categories, it changes things drastically!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Timmeh said:

So, when they choose high category winners, we take the highest percent in division, right?

So if you have Tac, Open, Irons, Heavy, 2 gun, 2x4, PCC...that's 7 divisions! The best guys shoot Tac and Open, maybe 2x4, of course the AMU likes to shotgun spread the divisions sometimes, nothing against that, but that leaves not a lot of competition for the other smaller divisions.

 

What happens is if you took a junior who shot 80% of a decent PCC shooter, they wouldn't beat the other junior shooting 80% of Daniel Horner, Greg Jordan, etc.

 

If they have OVERALL, like in most 3 gun, irons, heavy, tac, open, all thrown together, there is measurable results, because they all shot the same stage, and you take the high category winners off overall results.

There is never a fair comparison between Open and Heavy, ever. There will be even less of a fair comparison between 2x4 Open and Heavy. You're doing well smashing the Open nerds with Tac gear though, maybe close to Teemu level finishing 2nd Overall in Modified. In any case categories should only be within divisions that actually have people shooting in that category. For the record I don't care about categories in UML or class wins in USPSA. I would be happy if both went away. If you don't like UML rules just wait a short while and they will change again. In the meantime just keep on shooting and having fun. 

Also it's 8 divisions: Open, Limited, Tac Ops, Heavy (1 of 3 flavors only), 2x4 Open, 2x4 Tac, PCC Only, 2 gun. I agree the number of divisions looks absurd but to be fair at the local level it's been quite nice for attendance. I can't wait to see where all the Pros division hunt to crown the National Champion! 

Is 22LR really a division in UML? 

Edited by Darqusoull13
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

The only issue with too many divisions is truly having a field deep enough to generate real awards. IMHO being the only person in a division is a waste. I agree with the complainant about the frequency of rules changes. It has been difficult to incorporate many clubs/shooters under one rule set. 

 

22lr has been requested by British shooters as they can't use 223.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem of too many divisions could be handled with a little consolidation of divisions. Do away with 2x4 tac as it wasn't really a smart decision to add that any way. Combine 2x4 open and open into one division, just call it open. Do away with limited and make 2 gun a 1x optic division. Then you are left with tac optics, heavy, open, pcc, and 2 gun. Im even ok with doing away with pcc in UML and only having it in UPL matches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is a good solution. Right now it seems like there are equal numbers of people that like the niche divisions, and those that want less divisions with more people in them. Currently that decision is delegated down to the MD who can decide which divisions to offer. For example at Surefire last weekend they did not offer the PCC or 2 Gun divisions. If I was running a "major" with 150 or less shooters I wouldn't offer 2x4 tac or open as any firearms used in those divisions are legal in 2x4 open. I may have some pushback from open shooters that don't own a PCC or don't want to fly in with one. As far as I know, no match has required a PCC, but it does make some stages a lot easier.

Multigun is very regional and certain areas have set ideas on what is right. Overall it seems with the increase in matches there are less people flying so 2x4 isn't too bad. If we had to fly I don't think 2x4 is very feasible due to the weight limits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...