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Flatland Shooter

United Multi-Gun League Rule Clarification

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A local match has adopted the UML rules this year with their second match next weekend.   I'm thinking of giving it a try in "PCC Only".  Decided it would not be a bad idea to read the rules.

 

Rule 2 under "Firearms" reads :

                               "Competitors may change/reconfigure firearms at any time during the event provided they all fit into their registered divisional requirements."

 

Based on this rule it sounds like I can use two different guns, both PCC in 9mm, switching back and forth as I wish.  One gun would have a scope (for the longer range stages) and one gun would have a red dot (for the bay type stages).

 

What say you.  Legal or not?

 

Thanks.

 

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I received clarification from Pete regarding this specific wording. Your interpretation is correct. FOR ANY division where that wording appears for rifles (PCC) you may essentially totally swap guns provided the gun fits in the rule set of the division. 

 

"Let the gaming begin" :cheers:

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3 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Your interpretation is correct. FOR ANY division where that wording appears for rifles (PCC) you may essentially totally swap guns provided the gun fits in the rule set of the division. 

 

"Let the gaming begin" :cheers:

 

Excellent..    See you Sunday.   

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It would also seem to allow the use of more than one gun of a given type on a single stage with that language and interpretation.  If so cool.  More guns = more fun.

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Rapidly gaining interest in UML, rate higher than your loss rate. 

 

I can bring new shooters out to shoot multigun with 1) Only a PCC, 2) A PCC and a Handgun. The new folks and the folks that hate shotguns don't have to shoot the shotgun to play in multigun, initially or ever. That's huge for me. I have gotten more folks shooting multigun in 1 month with UML rules than I did last year using 3GN rules. It's so much easier when I can tell someone "Yeah, you can shoot the PCC the whole match to see if you like it" than.."Well, you need to learn how to jam shotgun shells in a loading port really fast because there's this 40 round shotgun stage"

 

To further expound, the rules are copied and pasted from a safety perspective from most other rule sets so they are acceptable from the most important perspective. However, UML rules contain the only division where I can be supremely creative and use not 3, but 4 guns in 3 gun. Not only does 2x4 add PCC and drastically increase the creative landscape of stage planning, I can also engage ANY target safely with ANY of my more than 3 guns, irrespective of nonsense written in a WSB. If it's safe to shoot with the gun, I can do it. Every WSB is now "Safely engage targets from within fault lines." No excessive scripting or asinine multi-colored target schemes are required.  

UML.jpg

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17 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Rapidly gaining interest in UML, rate higher than your loss rate. 

Thats hard to prove.

 

This all sounds fine and dandy for new shooters lacking gear. Sounds terrible when the guys at the top will be required to bring 10 guns to a match if they want to have the most efficient stage plan possible to stay on the podium. Sounds like a potential circus for gun staging as well as gun clearing, and regular 3 gun is already bad enough in that regard. Are people going to be constantly reconfiguring guns for every stage? Do the best shooters need an SPR-esque rifle for the best time possible on a 400+ yard stage? 

 

3 gun in my area has no problem drawing new shooters, shotgun and all. I'm not entirely convinced floods of new shooters and growth is the great thing that everyone makes it out to be.

 

I am genuinely curious about how you can use any gun on any target without eliminating all close steel, which I wouldn't care for. I'll read the rules before I dismiss UML entirely but so far I don't like much of what I see.

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1 hour ago, Stlhead said:

It would also seem to allow the use of more than one gun of a given type on a single stage with that language and interpretation.  If so cool.  More guns = more fun.

Don't see that interpretation and it's clarified elsewhere. 

 

Rule 3.4.7

Only 1 rifle, 1 PCC, 1 pistol, and 1 shotgun can be used on any stage in any combination.

Edited by Garmil

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37 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

Thats hard to prove.

 

 

Maybe.  But I looked at the results of their first UML match held in January and there is a pretty good number of new names. (At least new to me.)

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Maybe.  But I looked at the results of their first UML match held in January and there is a pretty good number of new names. (At least new to me.)

 

 

The "hard to prove" comment was only in regards to Darqusoull's comment that he was gaining interest in UML faster than I was losing it. Or at least thats what I interpreted him as saying. 

 

I don't doubt that the relaxed equipment rules will bring more new shooters, although as I said above I'm not convinced that in and of itself is always a positive thing.

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1 hour ago, TonytheTiger said:

Thats hard to prove.

 

This all sounds fine and dandy for new shooters lacking gear. Sounds terrible when the guys at the top will be required to bring 10 guns to a match if they want to have the most efficient stage plan possible to stay on the podium. Sounds like a potential circus for gun staging as well as gun clearing, and regular 3 gun is already bad enough in that regard. Are people going to be constantly reconfiguring guns for every stage? Do the best shooters need an SPR-esque rifle for the best time possible on a 400+ yard stage? 

 

3 gun in my area has no problem drawing new shooters, shotgun and all. I'm not entirely convinced floods of new shooters and growth is the great thing that everyone makes it out to be.

 

I am genuinely curious about how you can use any gun on any target without eliminating all close steel, which I wouldn't care for. I'll read the rules before I dismiss UML entirely but so far I don't like much of what I see.

I agree.

Kinda like pcc, while it is growing, it hasn't been the FLOOD of new shooters, that pcc'ers said, . some big matches barely got 1/2 the slots filled. I think they will do better next year, hope so.

Trying to cater to every whim the "I would shoot competition IF . . . . . " guys toss out there will gain very few, and cost other regulars.

Been there, tried that, in other racing sports. 

The - "I would shoot IF" , guys will ALWAYS be the - "I would shoot IF . . .  "  guys. 

Edited by toothandnail

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19 hours ago, Garmil said:

Don't see that interpretation and it's clarified elsewhere. 

 

Rule 3.4.7

Only 1 rifle, 1 PCC, 1 pistol, and 1 shotgun can be used on any stage in any combination.

Too bad.

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On 1/29/2018 at 5:41 PM, Darqusoull13 said:

Rapidly gaining interest in UML, rate higher than your loss rate. 

 

I can bring new shooters out to shoot multigun with 1) Only a PCC, 2) A PCC and a Handgun. The new folks and the folks that hate shotguns don't have to shoot the shotgun to play in multigun, initially or ever. That's huge for me. I have gotten more folks shooting multigun in 1 month with UML rules than I did last year using 3GN rules. It's so much easier when I can tell someone "Yeah, you can shoot the PCC the whole match to see if you like it" than.."Well, you need to learn how to jam shotgun shells in a loading port really fast because there's this 40 round shotgun stage"

 

To further expound, the rules are copied and pasted from a safety perspective from most other rule sets so they are acceptable from the most important perspective. However, UML rules contain the only division where I can be supremely creative and use not 3, but 4 guns in 3 gun. Not only does 2x4 add PCC and drastically increase the creative landscape of stage planning, I can also engage ANY target safely with ANY of my more than 3 guns, irrespective of nonsense written in a WSB. If it's safe to shoot with the gun, I can do it. Every WSB is now "Safely engage targets from within fault lines." No excessive scripting or asinine multi-colored target schemes are required.  

UML.jpg

With this picture and from the UML rules I read, let’s say I only wanted to shoot 2 guns, an open pistol and a tac ops rifle, does it fall into a 2X4 category? Per rules 2 gun division uses only tac ops rifle and pistol.

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Yes, dot and comp on the pistol are good for Open and 2x4. 

 

Oh and suppressors are good to go on anything in open and 2x4. Cans are good on any rifle or PCC as well. 

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2 hours ago, timawa said:

With this picture and from the UML rules I read, let’s say I only wanted to shoot 2 guns, an open pistol and a tac ops rifle, does it fall into a 2X4 category? Per rules 2 gun division uses only tac ops rifle and pistol.

I guess you could shoot 2x4 with that but you would take a penalty on any clay targets they set out. Pcc and 2 gun have provsions for skipping those targets but in 2x4 you would need to use a shotgun to engage them or take an fte.

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58 minutes ago, iamspartacus said:

I guess you could shoot 2x4 with that but you would take a penalty on any clay targets they set out. Pcc and 2 gun have provsions for skipping those targets but in 2x4 you would need to use a shotgun to engage them or take an fte.

 

So if you wanted to shoot in 2x4 and bring only two guns, can you successfully complete the match with just a PCC + shotgun?   Or are we required to shoot the long range rifle targets in 2x4?

 

Does anyone know of any WSB's posted online we can review to see how they are worded?

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I shoot Petes matches out here in Vegas regularly. When there's long range rifle targets then he puts up a seperate target that is comparable in time for pcc guys. For example at this past weekends big shot show match we had rifle targets out to 350yds, so for the pcc guys there was a spinner at 50 or 60 yards. Pcc got the long spinner, rifle got long range target

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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8 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

So if you wanted to shoot in 2x4 and bring only two guns, can you successfully complete the match with just a PCC + shotgun?   Or are we required to shoot the long range rifle targets in 2x4?

 

Does anyone know of any WSB's posted online we can review to see how they are worded?

I haven't seen any WSB, except from the last Dissident match. Seems like in 2x4 you can shoot any 2 guns in any given stage, and game it as you see fit, but I am sure if there is any longer range you will have to shoot them with a rifle. Only exception is PCC only division . 

 

gerritm

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To the OP, yes changing firearms/optics are allowed provided you do not change caliber. I don't know how much advantage it really provides. For example I used a 2-10x scope in Open last year, but the year before I used a 1-6 and am going back to the 1-6 this year. The extra magnification didn't seem worth the sacrifice in FOV, though that was compounded by it being a SFP scope. It is an advantage if your gun breaks, and now you don't need to find the RM for approval. It is good if you bring an unreliable magfed shotgun and only want to use it on the massive stages, but then again if it craps out halfway through you are still toast on that stage.

Stage Briefings from last years Safariland Expedition Multigun Match. There were some full written out deals, but I can't seem to find them anymore.  All stages were bay stages as it was designed to be a close range match, though IIRC there were some bays that went out to 80ish yards. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwfinlGN4FLzZ3loMDdfX3dBelU/view?usp=sharing & https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwfinlGN4FLzWVZvdVJFVHpucmc/view?usp=sharing. One thing I learned from that match was the need for clear stage briefings. What we thought was plain English was muddled by the new divisions and I had to answer a lot of questions. Not an issue as I am glad they were asked but many could have been avoided by having separate briefings. MGM gets away with the trooper rules because they have a core group that polices themselves and has been doing it for years. This is new and you can't rely on that.

 

I want to close with all matches are different, and different stages will have different WSBs that may dictate certain things. The EMG match did not have a single clay in it so you could have only brought 2 guns and been okay. 2x4 had to shoot all the targets same as every other division. There will be a separate MD guidebook with suggestions and recommendations but that is all it will be. If the MD wants to put a 200 yard target out there and say that everyone including PCC needs to shoot it then so be it. This started with an idea to make a rulebook that is as inclusive as possible. Some MD's are evil, and some shooters are gluttons for punishment. Who am I to deny them that?

 

 

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 Not sure if the link will work for you all, but skip to 9:20 mark to see a 340 yard shot with a PCC and red dot. If you were shooting 2x4 you don't "have" to shoot long range with a real rifle.

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Now I know where Reuben's been getting his latest batch of ideas. He regularly has plate racks and mini poppers at around 100yds at his matches and it doesn't appear to cause the PCC guys any grief.

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Not sure I would want to shoot a 340 yard target with a PCC & red dot, but a 100 yard 6" plate rack is plenty doable. My granddaughter who has been shooting PCC for  about 4 matches shot one last month with no problem.

 

gerritm

 

 

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