The next 3 Gun controversy! Detachable Shotgun Magazines come to SHOT 2018

[Stlhead]

Garmil

So if I understand your point, the fact that many (not all) rules call detachable magazines on shotguns an open only feature it is right and just and not subject to debate?  Rules are fluid, they change all the time, especially in 3 gun.  Lots of matches, lots of different rules sets.  I think that detachable magazine fed shotguns should be allowed in all divisions.  Fixed magazine shotguns don't make sense when the application requires more shells than can be held in a fixed magazine.  We do not regularly see stages where we load rifle and pistol magazines on the clock, what fun is that?  Instead we have stages where we see how fast we can shove shot shells into our shotguns.  Saying that a detachable magazine on any gun is a feature that should only be allowed in open says that it is some sort of major advantage that should be reserved for those that can handle the power of shooting open.  Detachable magazines are just common sense, the fact that there are not more shotguns that have them relates more to hunting regulations than common sense.  

 

Bryan

I often ask myself that.  Many of us shoot because we enjoy it.  I hold no illusions of the practical or social application of our game, we use bird shot on targets that are not birds!  One of my favorite matches every year has no shotgun in it at all.  I like shooting shotgun, I enjoy shooting a round of sporting clays now and again, many matches that I enjoy require them, but shotguns are not required to have a great match.  Perhaps the best use of shotguns in our sport would be shotgun only matches, I can't say for sure, but I know that as we are doing it now the shotgun portion of our game is broken, and needs a change.  Is allowing detachable magazines the change that is needed?  I don't know, but I do know that shotguns that look like pikes, and competitors with shot shells hanging all over them on plastic clips are not the direction I want to keep going.

[RJH]

Maybe allow the mag fed shotguns in the new carry ops/practical division?  I personally don't care either way, but do have to agree that shotgun as it is now is a lot like revolver division, a reloading contest with a little shooting thrown in

[kellyn]

My response to those who state that Mag-fed shotguns equals OPEN is why?  Firearms technology is going to change and advance.  Is Tac Optics frozen in time?  I remember when Tactical didn't exist (yes, there was a time of Limited and Open) and the same arguments were applied to rifle optics.  "Optics equals OPEN!!!"  was the battle cry then. 

 

This is not to say that I'm for a change right now but if mag fed semi-auto shotguns become commonly available, I will probably support a rule change allowing them into Tac Optics.  But I'm with Stlhead, looking at "Tactical" shooters festooned with shotshells all over their bodies in various contraptions and pike length shotguns is not a direction that I went to head either. 

[actionshooter]

I think  mag fed shotguns are whats coming in the future....with major manufacturers building pump guns w/ magazines, its only a matter of time before semi-autos are there and Tac ops will need to keep up. Is it going to happen tomorrow....naw,  but its coming,  Kind of a bummer because I just figured out the whole quad loading thing last week......

[StealthyBlagga]

One of the biggest barriers to entry for potential new 3-gunners is the shotgun. The objections I hear most often are:

 

(1) It as an outdated weapon system, useless for anything but our narrow gun game.

(2) Putting together a reasonably competitive and reliable shotgun is an expensive hassle.

(3) You have to buy expensive, specialized shell caddy systems then invest a lot of time in your Mom's basement to keep up with what has become a reloading competition.

 

If a new generation of box-mag shotguns proved to be inexpensive and reliable, then all three of the above barriers could be overcome. At that point I would not be opposed to broadening the number of divisions wherein such shotguns were allowed.

[GetAwayDriva]

I think it is a shame there is all this negativity around the shotgun.  I don’t believe it is “outdated.”  The Shotgun has lots of practical use and I would be so sad to see it chiseled out of 3 gun.  While they do require a little work to make them easier to load, it is not an expensive improvement.  It is easily done at home with a dremel.  Pretty much all you need to buy is a tube and some caddies.  And there are several reliable shotguns on the market.  I do think the biggest problem with the shotgun is the time investment mentioned by Stealthyblagga.  People don’t want to invest any time in learning the platform.  They just want to pick up their guns the day of the match and run them like a pro.  It is a shame to read all this hate of the shotgun because I think it is becoming one of my favorite parts of 3gun.  It didn’t use to be, but I have been spending time learning the platform.

Edited February 4, 2018 by GetAwayDriva

[TonytheTiger]

@GetAwayDriva

I agree completely. Seems like people have already forgotten the days of old school weak hand loading. That was tough to pick up, the current quad loading products on the market help someone become reasonably proficient at loading with only a few hours of practice. Now apparently even that is too hard.

Let's come up with a new division, we'll call it Lazy F**ker division or LF for short. No stages will have more than 8 shotgun targets, no pistol targets smaller than an IPSC classic and no rifle targets further than 80 yards. It will be the most inclusive division ever and anyone can show up with any guns and only be held back by the timer (until we stop using them), because the stage designs surely won't be intimidating or challenging.

[noexcuses]

6 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

@GetAwayDriva

 

Let's come up with a new division, we'll call it Lazy F**ker division or LF for short. No stages will have more than 8 shotgun targets, no pistol targets smaller than an IPSC classic and no rifle targets further than 80 yards. It will be the most inclusive division ever and anyone can show up with any guns and only be held back by the timer (until we stop using them), because the stage designs surely won't be intimidating or challenging.

can everyone get participation trophy's also

[TonytheTiger]

Soon, we're getting there.

[toothandnail]

9 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

@GetAwayDriva

I agree completely. Seems like people have already forgotten the days of old school weak hand loading. That was tough to pick up, the current quad loading products on the market help someone become reasonably proficient at loading with only a few hours of practice. Now apparently even that is too hard.

Let's come up with a new division, we'll call it Lazy F**ker division or LF for short. No stages will have more than 8 shotgun targets, no pistol targets smaller than an IPSC classic and no rifle targets further than 80 yards. It will be the most inclusive division ever and anyone can show up with any guns and only be held back by the timer (until we stop using them), because the stage designs surely won't be intimidating or challenging.

Yep, coming soon to a range near you.  

Don't get me wrong PCC could be a good division, unfortunately I see the majority (at least the vocal majority) calling for bigger targets and closer distances, and special concessions to include it in 3 gun.

The way many matches are now, it belongs in USPSA with pistol stages. I hope it doesn't go that way, but pistol is also losing favor as "it's too hard to master".

[PatriotMRD]

I was going to stay out of this one buuut,

 

Detachable magazine shotguns belong in OPEN right along with dots on pistols!

 

You run a pump gun in 3-gun either because you're just starting and your field gun is all you have for now or you're running HM for the added challenge.

[TA338]

Option 3 stage with a minimum of 28 rounds might be sporty but practical it isn"t.

[Thaunk]

To me, the combo of box and red dot make open.  That’s likely too simplistic a view. I enjoy trying to load my shotgun with fast doubles.  However, tech isn’t static and if a box fed semi auto shotgun becomes commercially viable for Mossberg, Beretta, etc. we may have to adapt.  Or we say those aren’t what we want and we move forward.  I like my gadgets and gizmos but I’m good either way.  My 5 foot long shotgun I find hilarious and entertaining.

[PacMan]

On 1/26/2018 at 4:37 PM, kellyn said:

Remington and Mossberg have now standardized detachable box magazines in the 870 and 590 line of pump shotguns.  I can only imagine that they will make their way to the popular semi-auto shotguns shortly.  Currently this would place the shooter in Open division.  So should we fight the future to retain our caddies, vests, and quad loads?  Or start planning on allowing these types of shotguns in the other divisions?   

 

I think it is important to go back to the original question of "...allowing these types...in other divisions?"  For this question, I am okay with moving the tube feed shotgun out of 19th century!  Maybe this will drive other companies like Benelli to do similar for their semi autos.

[kurtm]

Drive??? Benelli??? ?

[RJH]

So in the he man rules at Rocky mountain  just say 12 gauge pump, no specification on how it is fed, so is this box fed Mossberg legal there? If so I will be one step closer to buying one

[Benelli Chick]

53 minutes ago, RJH said:

So in the he man rules at Rocky mountain  just say 12 gauge pump, no specification on how it is fed, so is this box fed Mossberg legal there? If so I will be one step closer to buying one

6 Limited Class

c)No shotgun speed loaders, or removable mags are allowed on shotguns
in this class.
 

7. He-Man Class
a. All firearms in this class must meet the limited rules with the following
restrictions:

d. Shotguns in this class must be 12 gauge only, pump action.

 

Sorry!

 

 

[RJH]

Haha,  missed it. I didn't figure it was legal,  but thought I would ask. Guess Mossberg will have to wait a little longer for my money 

[SinistralRifleman]

Allow them in other divisions or 3 gun will start becoming irrelevant over the next 10 years and possibly phase out completely over the next 20.  2 Gun (Rifle/Pistol) matches will rise to prominence and supplant 3 gun because of changing demographics and firearm purchasing patterns.  Magfed shotguns are the one thing that might keep that from happening entirely.

 

Downside: no one will care about your sweet quad loading in your living room video on instagram anymore.

[CraigS.]

On 2/4/2018 at 7:04 AM, GetAwayDriva said:

I think it is a shame there is all this negativity around the shotgun.  I don’t believe it is “outdated.”  The Shotgun has lots of practical use and I would be so sad to see it chiseled out of 3 gun.  While they do require a little work to make them easier to load, it is not an expensive improvement.  It is easily done at home with a dremel.  Pretty much all you need to buy is a tube and some caddies.  And there are several reliable shotguns on the market.  I do think the biggest problem with the shotgun is the time investment mentioned by Stealthyblagga.  People don’t want to invest any time in learning the platform.  They just want to pick up their guns the day of the match and run them like a pro.  It is a shame to read all this hate of the shotgun because I think it is becoming one of my favorite parts of 3gun.  It didn’t use to be, but I have been spending time learning the platform.

 

I remember the same comments being made about the  new "Tactical optics " division that  was just being introduced into matches some time ago when it was just irons and open.

Kind of ironic.

[StealthyBlagga]

Did Mossberg announce a 930M this week? 

[The Donald]

On 1/25/2019 at 7:26 PM, StealthyBlagga said:

Did Mossberg announce a 930M this week? 

Could be a real game changer if Mossberg gets a 930M working.

[TonytheTiger]

But they never even got the 930JM to work, and they've had years to try.

[StealthyBlagga]

7 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

But they never even got the 930JM to work, and they've had years to try.

 

All they have to do is remove the “J” 

[TonytheTiger]

I'm telling Jerry you said that!