Garmil Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 25 minutes ago, teros135 said: She wasn't DQd for "unzipping a case". It was for sweeping her hand while removing the gun from the case. None of the actions mentioned above are DQs under the rules in Chapter 10. Sweeping the body is specifically a DQ if done during a course of fire (10.5.5). If done outside the COF (e.g., in a Safety Area), what rule does it come under? General violation of safety rules (10.3.1), like Cooper's rules #1 and #2? Unsafe gun handling? Myself, I believe it's inherently unsafe to sweep yourself, and it's not hard to keep from doing it. Are you going to have two (or more) different safety rules, for different occasions? Are you sure it's unloaded? No mag, but one in the chamber? Are you so confident that you'd point the gun at yourself and pull the trigger? Really? The ro saying make ready is the start of the course of fire (8.3.1). You open the case and remove the gun after the make ready command and point it at your hand, that's definitely sweeping during the course of fire (10.5.5). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 17 minutes ago, Garmil said: The ro saying make ready is the start of the course of fire (8.3.1). You open the case and remove the gun after the make ready command and point it at your hand, that's definitely sweeping during the course of fire (10.5.5). That's pretty clear, then. Sounds like a wrap. Let's alL meet at DQ and have an Orange Julius . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremiahD Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 On 1/15/2018 at 6:25 PM, Hi-Power Jack said: Fortunately, I'm NOT an RO - my hearing is too poor - don't want to endanger anyone because I didn't hear something that it was important for me to hear. I understand your sentiment, completely - I'll put YOU down on the "rules" side of the equation and continue to disagree, on a case by case basis, respectfully. I dont understand your concept of a "rules equation". Theres the rules, as written, and their corresponding penalty. Its not an equation. Its a printed manual... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 23 hours ago, JeremiahD said: I dont understand your concept of a "rules equation". There's the rules and their penalty. Its not an equation. Its a printed manual... Exactly. I'll put you down on the "rules" side of the equation, also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackinSD Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 On 1/15/2018 at 6:07 PM, Steve RA said: No, I don't know and Fenwick7 did not say - one way or the other. If it was unloaded I don't agree with the DQ. If it was loaded I would then agree with the DQ. Please look up the 1st rule of firearms safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 7 minutes ago, JackinSD said: Please look up the 1st rule of firearms safety. Were talking Uspsa and they acknowledge a difference between the two... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackinSD Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Garmil said: Were talking Uspsa and they acknowledge a difference between the two... I agree with a you, except once a load and make ready command has been given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, JackinSD said: I agree with a you, except once a load and make ready command has been given. "Load and make ready? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackinSD Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 35 minutes ago, teros135 said: "Load and make ready? Yeah okay. Not the correct command. But, I think you get the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 my view on this is it would have to be pretty blatantly careless for me to be certain enough to issue a dq. Most of the time what I see is someone who *might have* swept themselves, and I make a point of clarifying the rules for them, and tell them to be very careful not to sweep self when uncasing gun. If you're not 100% certain, a warning is appropriate. If you are 100% certain, it is hard to justify anything other than a dq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximis228 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Warnings only seem to help the mind of the RO. You wanted to say something, but didn't. A DQable action is a DQable action. If that action didnt occur, a lecture isn't needed at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 45 minutes ago, Maximis228 said: Warnings only seem to help the mind of the RO. You wanted to say something, but didn't. A DQable action is a DQable action. If that action didnt occur, a lecture isn't needed at all. Not a lecture, but people typically are grateful when you tell them that they pushed very close to the edge, I say "thank you" and that is what people say to me. If I get a warning it is something I will take to heart & work on when I get home. I view it as both helping each other stay out of trouble & promoting safer shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L3324temp Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 For some reason I thought this was a zipper issue not sweeping. It was an error on my part and I agree, sweeping is clear in the rules.Although I still think it’s ridiculous that sweeping with an unloaded gun is a DQ but holstering a loaded gun pointed into your leg with a DOH holster is AOK.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 11 minutes ago, L3324temp said: For some reason I thought this was a zipper issue not sweeping. It was an error on my part and I agree, sweeping is clear in the rules. Although I still think it’s ridiculous that sweeping with an unloaded gun is a DQ but holstering a loaded gun pointed into your leg with a DOH holster is AOK. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Almost impossible to holster with any holster without sweeping legs. That’s why the rules allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 2 hours ago, L3324temp said: Although I still think it’s ridiculous that sweeping with an unloaded gun is a DQ but holstering a loaded gun pointed into your leg with a DOH holster is AOK. one, we're supposed to treat every gun as if it's loaded. i'm sure we've all seen an unloaded gun or two, that wasn't. two, we should minimize the opportunities to shoot ourselves by not putting body parts in front of the muzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L3324temp Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 one, we're supposed to treat every gun as if it's loaded. i'm sure we've all seen an unloaded gun or two, that wasn't. two, we should minimize the opportunities to shoot ourselves by not putting body parts in front of the muzzle.100% agree. Hence my confusion about legs and loaded guns and DOH holsters. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 18 hours ago, Sarge said: Almost impossible to holster with any holster without sweeping legs. That’s why the rules allow it. Anybody with half a brain can holster their loaded gun without sweeping themselves. Man up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 On 1/15/2018 at 12:24 PM, Maximis228 said: Yes. 100% necessary. Fact. People forget how serious the consequences really is for being lax about safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 With every DQ should be a clear and calm explanation of what rule was violated, how it was violated, and why the rule exists. Fact-based, not personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeclmbr Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Got dq,d for 1st time tonight after 3 yrs shooting. New guy to our club who was Ro,ing is supposedly a 3 gun shooter. Hard to argue, i was moving left,being right handed. Guess you just say ok, guess im pasting the rest of the night. Hard to argue a judgement call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 7 hours ago, Treeclmbr said: Got dq,d for 1st time tonight after 3 yrs shooting. New guy to our club who was Ro,ing is supposedly a 3 gun shooter. Hard to argue, i was moving left,being right handed. Guess you just say ok, guess im pasting the rest of the night. Hard to argue a judgement call. That is an easy call for an inexperienced r.o. to screw up, I assume he/she was behind and to your right when it happened. I am not saying the r.o. did screw up in your case, but I have seen it. I think a good take home from that lesson is to make darn sure that next time you make an obvious legal reload and do not leave any room for there to be a judgement call. When moving to my weak side & reloading I exaggerate pointing the gun downrange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeclmbr Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Agreed, moving to weak side, generally over exagerate keeping gun downrange. 170-180-190 degrees can be tough and yes he was behind my right side. If i did - good call. Either way i shouldn't be that close to the 180 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 You violated a rule, you pay the penalty. The person that gets a warning this week may be the person to send a round into themselves or the squad next week. DQ's are meant to be painful. If you are giving warnings you are a disservice to yourself, the shooter as well as the sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeclmbr Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Totally agree, as i said, if i did ,good call. I shouldn't even be close to the 180 Rules are definitely there for everyones satey which is Always priority 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 43 minutes ago, Treeclmbr said: Totally agree, as i said, if i did ,good call. I shouldn't even be close to the 180 Rules are definitely there for everyones satey which is Always priority 1 You pasted after the fact & you are not whining. Great job! Other side of the coin is that as an r.o. / s.o. we need to make sure that we recognize that you own the entire 180 degrees and we need to be sure that we never call something that we think happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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