Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Outer Limits disabled shooter penalty?


edyan

Recommended Posts

For Outer Limits...Is there a standard penalty for a disabled shooter. I've seen 3sec & 2sec even 1.5sec per string....I think 2.5 Sec per run would be fair...which would  add 10 seconds to the raw score

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have had MDs say that people who are wheel chair bound or missing limbs (or parts) do not have to move, and there would be no penalty.  For lesser injuries or problems there would be a procedural if the shooter elected no to move.  I have also seen a MD allow a shooter with a lower leg prosthesis stay in one box with no penalty.  I did not agree with that decision, because the shooter was clearly able to move from cart to shooting station and anywhere else.  Yes he was slower, but he was not disabled IMO.    His times were significantly faster than anyone else on the squad, because he didn't have to move.  Yet he was slower on the other stages that did not require movement.

 

When I was recovering from hernia surgery, I waddled from box to box.  Sure I was slow, but so what.  I was able to move, just not run.  I agree there should be a standard penalty for not moving, and it should be a procedural.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This one thing has cause me more headaches than any other aspect of Steel Challenge. What seems to becoming the standard and seems to be accepted as fair is 2 second penalty per string for not moving. I have tried coming up with a way to make it fair for everyone and the only way to do that would be to eliminate movement and that’s not going to happen. I thought about making the center box the standard and rewarding competitors that do move but then that becomes a huge nightmare. What bonus do you give a GM versus a D or U competitor?

When I serve as RM the standard will be 2 seconds unless (1) the competitor does not check with me first. In that case 3 second procedural is warranted per the rules or (2) while discussing the penalty with the competitor we determine some other rule is more applicable.

One thing people don’t realize is that it can hurt you if you shoot from center box and don’t take a penalty. What if you end up with 9 second run and that causes unwarranted bump in classification.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two seconds seems like a good compromise.  Any way to get something in "writing" from USPSA?  My wife and I basically only shoot Level 1 so there is absolutely nothing at stake, but she hates not being able to move safely from box to box.  3 seconds would be about right for her shooting SS (a C shooter), but she's already B in RFRO after 2 matches and would be A but for the 3 second hit on Outer Limits.  At one club match the MD let her move behind the boxes which was at least safer.

 

I think at the club level a competitive person with disability who is really interesting in classification could just take a DNF on Outer Limits versus a 3 second penalty, but 2 seconds even for someone otherwise skilled wouldn't be that much of a hit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Zach, this was the first time I saw anything about starting in the center box.  I just finished reading the 2018 rules.  It does mention starting in the center box as an example in the 3.4.1 Special penalty paragraph.  However, the Note: on page 42 says you must start in the appropriate outside box.  Which is it? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/12/2018 at 6:14 PM, ZackJones said:

This one thing has cause me more headaches than any other aspect of Steel Challenge. What seems to becoming the standard and seems to be accepted as fair is 2 second penalty per string for not moving. I have tried coming up with a way to make it fair for everyone and the only way to do that would be to eliminate movement and that’s not going to happen. I thought about making the center box the standard and rewarding competitors that do move but then that becomes a huge nightmare. What bonus do you give a GM versus a D or U competitor?

When I serve as RM the standard will be 2 seconds unless (1) the competitor does not check with me first. In that case 3 second procedural is warranted per the rules or (2) while discussing the penalty with the competitor we determine some other rule is more applicable.

One thing people don’t realize is that it can hurt you if you shoot from center box and don’t take a penalty. What if you end up with 9 second run and that causes unwarranted bump in classification.

 

I just always figured 3-second penalty per string for our matches (with the person starting in the center box, and staying there for all shots, though they still have to shoot one side first, then the other side then the stop plate), since we already have scoring set up for a 3-second penalty equaling a procedural.  (Note: the person making this choice must have a medical reason for not being able to safely perform the movement aspect of this stage.)  For a 2-second penalty per string....how do you score that in PS?  Do you just add 2 seconds to the time from the timer, as opposed to recording the actual score and adding a specific penalty per string for recording purposes?

 

That does now make me curious as to split times from the last shot of box one, to the first shot of box 2.  Might have to get some data on that from our next matches, just to see if 2 seconds-worth of penalty is reasonable compared to 3 seconds.  Did you do this already, Zack?  (So I don't have to?  :) )

Looking at the vast majority of shooters, I would have thought a basic 3-second procedural would have been appropriate.  Now I'm curious!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/12/2018 at 7:59 PM, RickT said:

Two seconds seems like a good compromise.  Any way to get something in "writing" from USPSA? 

 

The closest you will find right now is the wording I used on the registration for US Steel Shoot which reads 

 

"Pursuant to rule 3.4.1 Special Penalty for non-movement on Outer Limits for any competitor requesting exemption from movement a 2 second penalty, per string, may be assessed."

 

This is listed as a mandatory checkbox field so each competitor is required to check it which indicates they have read it. Doesn't mean they agree with it but at least they know up front what the planned penalty may be.

 

On 1/13/2018 at 12:14 PM, zzt said:

Zach, this was the first time I saw anything about starting in the center box.  I just finished reading the 2018 rules.  It does mention starting in the center box as an example in the 3.4.1 Special penalty paragraph.  However, the Note: on page 42 says you must start in the appropriate outside box.  Which is it? 

 

The note on 42 is for stage setup. 3.4.1 is the rule that should be used when a competitor requests to not start in one of the outer boxes. 

 

This is for Thomas H's question below - For some reason I can't get my cursor to go below his message :(. I've not done any timing on movement from one box to another. I think Nimitz may have done some. 

On 1/14/2018 at 2:17 PM, Thomas H said:

That does now make me curious as to split times from the last shot of box one, to the first shot of box 2.  Might have to get some data on that from our next matches, just to see if 2 seconds-worth of penalty is reasonable compared to 3 seconds.  Did you do this already, Zack?  (So I don't have to?  :) )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10.2.1.  It's up to the Range Master.  Penalties can range from one procedural to a 20% reduction in points scored.  It goes on to say that the RM can waive  penalty for seriously disabled shooters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The penalty for not moving is three seconds. The new Steel Challenge covers movement penalties:  

 

7.4.1 Improper movement or failure to move on stages where movement is required would be considered a procedural and a 3 second penalty applied, per string. Exception for special penalty on Outer Limits, see rule 3.4.1.

 

3.4.1 Special penalty: A competitor unable to fully execute any part of a course of fire due to incapacity or injury may, prior to making his attempt at the course of fire, request that the Range Master apply a penalty in lieu of the stated course requirement. The Range Master may waive or modify procedural penalties in respect of a competitor who has a significant physical disability prior to the competitor making his attempt at the course of fire. (As an example, a wheelchair bound competitor might shoot all of Outer Limits from the center box without
penalty).

SCSA_Rule_Book.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, David.Hylton said:

The penalty for not moving is three seconds. The new Steel Challenge covers movement penalties:  

 

7.4.1 Improper movement or failure to move on stages where movement is required would be considered a procedural and a 3 second penalty applied, per string. Exception for special penalty on Outer Limits, see rule 3.4.1.

 

3.4.1 Special penalty: A competitor unable to fully execute any part of a course of fire due to incapacity or injury may, prior to making his attempt at the course of fire, request that the Range Master apply a penalty in lieu of the stated course requirement. The Range Master may waive or modify procedural penalties in respect of a competitor who has a significant physical disability prior to the competitor making his attempt at the course of fire. (As an example, a wheelchair bound competitor might shoot all of Outer Limits from the center box without
penalty).

SCSA_Rule_Book.pdf

 

You'll note in the special penalty part that is says "the Range Master may waive or modify procedural penalties" which is what the thread is about.  For most people, it would be 3 seconds.  For people who are eligible for the special penalty, it doesn't have to be.

 

I personally think that a 3-second penalty is reasonable for not doing the movement, and as RM at our SC matches that's what we do.  Other people differ, and that's all okay.  I'm planning on doing some timing of various shooters at our next couple of SC matches (if I can) just to see what sorts of movement times occur, to see if 3 seconds is unfair or reasonable, or if 2 seconds is more reasonable for folks.

 

I prefer using three seconds because then you can enter the shooter's actual times, and just add the standard procedural.  Doing a different amount means adding different times to their raw score and entering it AS the raw score.  Not against the rules if the competitor knows about it, but....prefer doing it the other way.

 

We'll see if I find out (based on whatever I can sample) if I keep that opinion.  :)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a really good question. I know that a shooter in a tier 2 match last year asked to take the penalty due to bad hips. I forget how much penalty was assessed but I think it was 3 seconds/string. I do remember that the shooter had otherwise fast times though.

 

Lets say you have 2 competitors both are super seniors with slow mobility due to bad hips. One of them wants to take the penalty the other is a trooper and hobbles from the side box to the center box. The shooter that moves requires more time than the penalty. I think that shooter is more of a sportsman but what is fair with respect to physical issues? I really don't know the answer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In PractiScore you could add a 2 second penalty. The problem with that approach is it could then be used on all stages. Can you imagine the mess that could cause? Is this a 2 second or 3 second penalty? Adding 2 seconds to timer time has worked and will be my recommended approach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Zack you mentioned that changing OL to a non movement stage will never happen.... never is a big word....  there have been changes thru the years( before my time ) to stages before so it is not without precedent.      One thing about SC is the lack of movement ( other than the draw for CF ) is a great equalizer for all ages and pretty much makes it a skill of shooting accurately at speed without movement.

 

OL is the big exception.  I wish they would retire OL and come up with a new stage with no movement to match all other stages. I can see this as the only solution to which penalty and for whom.... Old age causing slow movement is a disability too... not as bad as the shooter confined to a chair but a real disability to being competive just the same.   I would want the same penalty as the fellow/gal in the chair.... So as you say it is a no win solution to a problem that should just be retired and go away.  If you want to challenge yourself with shooting and movement there is a match called USPSA

 

Just my 2 cents

Edited by xpierrat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

After watching a bunch of YouTube videos various steel challenge matches ...using a count of 1 one thousand, 2 one thousand (not super accurate but close) GM, M shooters are often under 2 sec ...A & B shooters run 2-2.5 sec and C & D shooters are around 3 & more sec as an average... At 71  I have major problems with movement(hips & knees) & use a cane, but I still have good reflexes & my trigger finger is still young & , I'm proud to have made A class in RFRO... I can usually hang with the rest of my class until outer limits, there I know I don't have a shot...but then again 3sec is better than I can ever do it in so I'm grateful for that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wait a minute.  Are you guys suggesting you can ask for a waiver if you are an old fart?  That doesn't sound right.  I'm 70, still recovering from a broken left foot and I have a hernia the docs won't/can't  fix again.  If I tried to bolt between boxes I'd tear something, or worse.  So I jog/waddle from left to center box.  It takes me more than 3 seconds.  In fact, OL is THE reason I'm not A Class in RFPO.  Even so, I do not feel entitled to a waiver.  If I can run (sort of) on USPSA courses, I can move in OL.

 

Edited by zzt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not about being entitled to a waiver...I know a few super seniors that are in great shape and move really fast that are A class and Master shooters, so it's not about being an old fart ...there is a difference about being able to shoot fast and being able to move fast...7 of the 8 stages currently used for the steel challenge require no movement, it's about pure shooting skills..only one requires movement...at least you so can (sort of ) run on a USPSA course, for those of us who can't and are officially physically disabled, don"t see anything wrong with taking a penalty. It's your choice not to do so...Safety is another big reason..there is more of a possibility that someone with a movement disability trying to move quickly. might trip and fall down with a loaded weapon. My initial post was about the arbitrary penalty's given, not whether there should be one or not.  just think it would be good for there to be a standard rule in the book instead of being at the discretion of a range master, then it would be the same wherever you shoot the steel challenge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, zzt said:

If you are officially physically disabled, I have no problem with taking the penalty.  Also, as I said earlier, it should be a standard procedural for everyone.

Clarify "officially".  If someone doesn't have a handicap sticker on his/her car, but can't transition safely?  Really, the best choice for someone who is skilled, but can't safely make the movement would be to DNF the stage.  It will drop off classification after two years.

 

  

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rick T are you really saying if you are worried that you can't make the movement safely that you should take a DNF on that stage?   Why even shoot the match then....   Frankly if anyone disabled, old,  injured or healthy as an ox wants to take the three sec penalty I say go ahead. They will never get above a high C or Low B taking the penalty anyway.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, xpierrat said:

Rick T are you really saying if you are worried that you can't make the movement safely that you should take a DNF on that stage?   Why even shoot the match then....   Frankly if anyone disabled, old,  injured or healthy as an ox wants to take the three sec penalty I say go ahead. They will never get above a high C or Low B taking the penalty anyway.

 

I'm not speaking for myself.  My comment was related to the notion of "officially disabled" whatever that means.  The implication is that if you don't have a blue tag on your car you've got to move.  If the movement were mandated I wouldn't have a problem with someone taking a DNF giving them an opportunity to work toward a high classification; it's not as though there is anything at stake in this sport for 99.9% of the participants.

 

 I have no problem whatsoever with the 3 seconds provided someone who has safety concerns can elect to take the procedural.  Assuming two seconds difference for an A shooter (total time) between movement and no movement the procedural costs you 3 seconds.  It's a good deal of time, but there is no way to be otherwise fair. 

 

We're beating this to death.  If SCSA is concerned about someone abusing the procedural (unlikely) then they can change the rules.  Otherwise, the procedural should be available at the shooter's discretion.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, RickT said:

 We're beating this to death.  If SCSA is concerned about someone abusing the procedural (unlikely) then they can change the rules.  Otherwise, the procedural should be available at the shooter's discretion.

Agreed 100%    anybody should be able to take a 3 second penalty and not move... their call....

 

Better yet replace the stage with a new one that has NO movement on the clock like the other 7

You want movement shoot USPSA or IDPA or action steel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...