Fault Lines and being exposed to targets

[cgrivois]

We've been having heated discussions lately while setting up for matches regarding fault lines and targets.  There are times when if you crowd the fault line, or use long cover on the fault line, you can clearly see and engage all the targets without changing your body position.  The question is can / should a PE be issued for exposing yourself to unengaged targets if you set up in this way?  We used to call it busting cover, but since there are no longer cover calls with the use of fault lines, the line of thought is now your exposing yourself to targets.  Our MD has said that the intent of fault lines was not to stop using cover, which to a point I agree with him.   

[NewColonial]

There are no cover calls. The rules call for fault lines now. If you go over the line, it's a PE. You still have to shoot the targets in priority, but per the rules, it doesn't matter if you can see all the targets or not. A good MD will ensure the stages are designed to require movement to see additional targets, but the rules do not require use of "cover." 

[wgj3]

Edited for stupid/lack of rule knowledge...

 

Please forgive my ignorance of the rules. I shall leave this to be answered by someone more knowledgeable than myself of the current IDPA rules. Maybe we were still learning the new rules when I saw use of multiple lines at one location...?

Edited January 5, 2018 by wgj3
Stupid

[NewColonial]

The rules specifically prohibit multiple fault lines at same location.

 

3.6.3 A. Fault Lines are used to ensure a shooter is behind cover when engaging targets from a Position of Cover (PoC). There will only be one Fault Line at each PoC, and that line applies to all targets engaged from that PoC.

 

The way around that is to add something like a barrel to require a move to see additional targets.

[NewColonial]

wgj3, it's quite possible you saw it used, that's for sure!  Especially early in the year MDs were trying lots of things as everyone worked to understand. Somewhere there's a youtube video showing the barrel idea very well. 

 

I know too well about the confusion over cover/fault lines. The very first match I shot under the new rules I shot an array of targets out of priority because I could see them all! Big ol' PE. :-)

 

Cheers.

[perttime]

In some cases, you could make the fault lines so "tight" that you can only get one target in a comfortable position, and need to lean around a corner to get the rest.

[Ty Hamby]

Have your MD check this clarification out. http://www.idpa.tech/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Ruling-on-Fault-lines.pdf

[rowdyb]

Old thinking and experiences don't seem to mesh well with new rules.

[Jim Watson]

14 hours ago, Ty Hamby said:

Have your MD check this clarification out. http://www.idpa.tech/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Ruling-on-Fault-lines.pdf

 

News to me.  Why are clarifications like this not distributed to all members?  They send out a regular e-newsletter that seems to be mostly advertising and plugola, it could have some real content, too.

[rowdyb]

What's funny is I have people around me who say "Those aren't real rules or rulings because they aren't on the dot com website."

 

IDPA is doing a poor job of communicating these types of things.

[3gunDQ]

Just now, rowdyb said:

 

IDPA is doing a poor job 

 

Have been for years. 

[DMark]

23 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Old thinking and experiences don't seem to mesh well with new rules.

 

Agree.

 

Old Thinking (that IDPA simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters) and experiences (those of us who have been shot at and returned fire) don't seem to mesh well with the new rules (that make IDPA a low round count while wearing vests form of USPSA).

 

It is almost like we've returned to the early 1990s when a growing number of shooters began to realize that there wasn't anything really "Practical" about USPSA and that a new type of combat focused shooting competition was needed.

[RePete]

That's why it's called IPSC/USPSA Lite.

[midnightson]

We've had the same discussion at our matches about engaging targets through a port. If you have 3 targets to engage as per old rules you sliced the pie and exposed yourself to one target at a time. Now, you can post up in uspsa mode in the middle of the port to engage all 3?

[RePete]

25 minutes ago, midnightson said:

We've had the same discussion at our matches about engaging targets through a port. If you have 3 targets to engage as per old rules you sliced the pie and exposed yourself to one target at a time. Now, you can post up in uspsa mode in the middle of the port to engage all 3?

 

No.

 

3.2.4 If targets are hidden by cover, the targets are engaged as they become visible around the edge of cover (slicing the pie). 

[NewColonial]

25 minutes ago, midnightson said:

We've had the same discussion at our matches about engaging targets through a port. If you have 3 targets to engage as per old rules you sliced the pie and exposed yourself to one target at a time. Now, you can post up in uspsa mode in the middle of the port to engage all 3?

 

No, you may not. Fault lines delineate cover. They do not eliminate cover.

3.2.4 If targets are hidden by cover, the targets are engaged as they become visible around the edge of cover (slicing the pie).

 

You still have to "slice the pie" even if you can see al the targets.

[NewColonial]

Ha! Timing.  :-)

 

[davsco]

2 minutes ago, RePete said:

 

No.

 

3.2.4 If targets are hidden by cover, the targets are engaged as they become visible around the edge of cover (slicing the pie). 

 but yes, you can post up in the middle of the port as long as not over the fault line, though you still need to shoot them outside in.

[midnightson]

Correct, that has been my position. Outside in.

[robertbank]

The rule is quite simple!  If you are behind the fault line and not over it you are using cover by rule and there is no penalty.   The first thing you have to do before reading the rules on fault lines is forget any and all ideas you have about using cover or the old cover rules,  They DON"T apply now.  Is the shooter behind the fault line, defined as not stepping on the other side of the fault line. eg You can step on a 2 x 2 as long as your toe does not touch the ground on the other side of the fault line you are good to go.

 

A clarification now has been issued to ensure match directors don't go stupid and have the fault lines set so you have to twist yourself into a pretzel to get at targets,  

 

We traded so called subjective cover calls for subjective placement of fault lines.  What HQ seems to want are  shoot able stages designed so all shooters can manage to shoot the targets.

 

IDPA set this whole issue up by 1) Moving from calling cover from the leading edge of a target to calling cover from the middle of the exposed Down Zero of the target.  The latter beyond about five yards was virtually impossible without the use of a transit.  2) The resulting outrage from some shooters led to HQ going to fault lines rather than asking themselves what caused the outrage in the first place.  Calling cover from the leading edge a target was easy and effective.

 

This is not the only rule that has gone be the wayside the same way.  We used to have a rule that said you could not leave cover with an empty gun.  Simple enough.  Well it was until we decided to allow leaving cover when entering a hallway after shooting available targets and then applied the thinking to rooms, provided the room was actually built out.  Well the resulting confusion as when and how to apply the rule led HQ to throw the rule out.  Heck reload anytime anywhere just like USPSA/IPSC,  Rather than put their hand up and rescind the hallway/room rules HQ just dropped the rule against leaving cover with an empty gun.  Now I have not been in any two way bullet exchanges but the notion I would leave the safety of cover with an empty gun is beyond the pale.  Sorry but I wouldn't do it and I am not so sure anyone else would do so either.

 

Folks we don;t use cover like the sport called for five years ago.  In fact we don;t use cover at all.  We use fault lines to show you where you can shoot just like USPSA and IPSC,   

 

Just my opinion.  It is what it is.  I still enjoy the sport;  it just isn't what it once was.  

 

Take Care

 

Bob

 

  

[DMark]

9 hours ago, robertbank said:

......Just my opinion.  It is what it is.  I still enjoy the sport;  it just isn't what it once was.  Take Care   Bob

  

 

You know what....., Bob is right!

[GWeeks]

So I shoot a match yesterday for first time in a while.  The stage was step up where you shoot 2 targets from P1 then went to P2 to shoot T3 - T6 as per stage description.  At P2 they had two fault lines.  My understanding was that you can only have 1 fault line per position.  So by me going to the further one that made it so I could shoot everything from there they gave me a procedural.  They said I had to use the first line for T3 and then use other line for T4 - T6.  So my question is was I right or wrong?  They said I still had to use cover when shooting T3.

[NewColonial]

Rule 3.6.3 A specifically states there can be only one fault line per point of cover. The MD needs to read the rule book.  Making stuff up doesn’t cut it. 

[tanks]

On 1/14/2018 at 5:50 AM, NewColonial said:

...

You still have to "slice the pie" even if you can see al the targets.

 

I found that out yesterday at my second ever IDPA match. I had thought "tactical priority" was closest target to the furthest so I went left to right (I was on the right hand side of the stage) when all targets were visible while within cover lines instead of right to left. First procedural penalty of IDPA for me. Kinda counterintuitive, but then again it is a game with its own rules.

[Joe4d]

IDPA is retarded,, shoot it like the MD says in the walk through and just have fun with it. The rules are meaningless and a jumbled mess.  You will live a happier life