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How short OAL for CZ shadow?


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2 hours ago, ML123 said:

Thanks, I did NOT measure factory rounds in my barrel.  My measurements are using the Bullet I plan to load using Wobbly's push method in the chamber of the gun I plan to use.  I have a 1.080 OAL according to the method Wobbly described and I am asking if someone can tell me how to figure out were to start with Titegroup since 1.080 is LESS than the 1.010 that is cited in all the load data I have found on Titegroup.

 

Apparently there is a formula out there that requires 6th grade algebra but I can't seem to find it anywhere?

 

It doesn't matter that 1.08 is LESS than the cited OAL if that information is useless. What happens if you find data that lists a shorter tested length? Which length would you choose then? As an example only: I load a 147gr FMJ to 1.08 over 3.6gr (max) of Titegroup (130 PF from 4" barrel). Hogdon's data applies more directly to my situation but I still ignored the OAL. No reputably published data will make your $hit explode because you shortened the OAL to fit your barrel. Lead data for lead/coated lead bullets, FMJ data for FMJ/plated bullets.

 

Also, wouldn't it be easier to search this forum for 147+coated+Titegroup instead of trying to mathematically reduce your charge in relationship to the OAL while extrapolating coated lead charge weights from FMJ data? lol.

 

You're over thinking this. Load to the max determined OAL using suggested charge weights for a lead/coated lead 147gr bullet and chrono you test loads to confirm velocity.

Edited by 4n2t0
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1 hour ago, 4n2t0 said:

 

It doesn't matter that 1.08 is LESS than the cited OAL if that information is useless. What happens if you find data that lists a shorter tested length? Which length would you choose then? As an example only: I load a 147gr FMJ to 1.08 over 3.6gr (max) of Titegroup (130 PF from 4" barrel). Hogdon's data applies more directly to my situation but I still ignored the OAL. No reputably published data will make your $hit explode because you shortened the OAL to fit your barrel. Lead data for lead/coated lead bullets, FMJ data for FMJ/plated bullets.

 

Also, wouldn't it be easier to search this forum for 147+coated+Titegroup instead of trying to mathematically reduce your charge in relationship to the OAL while extrapolating coated lead charge weights from FMJ data? lol.

 

You're over thinking this. Load to the max determined OAL using suggested charge weights for a lead/coated lead 147gr bullet and chrono you test loads to confirm velocity.

Awesome thanks I am just going to start with the 3.2 then.  I am new and trying to understand also, from what I was reading in Wobbly thread there was some formula for figuring out load vs OAL if you change it.   BTW I did search that and there are a bunch of threads but nobody mentioned a specific load with a OAL less than 1.10 a few talked about it but didnt say what they ended up using.  Thanks for sharing what you are loading with 1.08.

 

 

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2 hours ago, ML123 said:

Awesome thanks I am just going to start with the 3.2 then.  I am new and trying to understand also, from what I was reading in Wobbly thread there was some formula for figuring out load vs OAL if you change it.   BTW I did search that and there are a bunch of threads but nobody mentioned a specific load with a OAL less than 1.10 a few talked about it but didnt say what they ended up using.  Thanks for sharing what you are loading with 1.08.

 

 

 

I understand your nervousness as a new loader, we were all there once. Try to stick with published data whenever possible but sometimes, like in your case, published data from the powder manufacturer doesn't exist for your bullet weight and construction (Titegroup+147gr lead/coated lead bullet). When this happens I reference several manuals and or collect as much information from the web as possible and start with the general consensus charge. When trying to duplicate a load bullet weight and construction matter most. For instance; from my previous example you can assume that any 147gr FMJ loaded with 3.6gr of Titegroup will produce similar velocities when fired from a 4" barrel. Why? Because the bullet weight (147gr), construction (FMJ) and barrel length (4") are all the same. The ogive of the bullet, barrel and magazine all potentially affect the OAL so that figure should always be determined on your own (as you did by following Wobbly's post).

 

P.S. Darrell's data might come in handy (147gr coated lead w/ Titegroup).

 

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Edited by 4n2t0
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23 hours ago, ML123 said:

I am getting ready to load my first 9mm rounds on my new press...  I am using Titegroup powder which according to Hogdgons load data 147g bullet at 1.010 is 3.2 grains for the low side.  Should I start there or lower at 3.0? 

 

2 hours ago, ML123 said:

Awesome thanks I am just going to start with the 3.2 then.  I am new and trying to understand also


I think you might already be at minor PF with 3.2 of Titegroup behind a 147gr. I would't load higher than that until you've chronoed it, but I also think 3.2gr at 1.08" will be fine. I haven't worked up a load with Titegroup yet because I have some other powder to burn through first, though I expect to use 3.0gr in my final load with a 147 coated bullet.

Since you're also new to reloading in general, be very careful. Titegroup is easy to double charge and a couple months ago we went through a saga on these forums after a new reloader blew up his gun.

 

What press are you loading on?

I would generally discourage someone from starting to reload with Titegroup. If you can swing a pound of Universal, Unique, 700X, Win 321, or Red Dot at a local store that might be a safer introduction. Could be tough to find in this environment though.

Here's the thread from a guy who blew up his X5 with a double charge of TG on a Lee press. His load was 3.0 of TG and a 147gr.  The first reply correctly predicts he was double charging cases and not noticing it.

 

Edited by belus
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18 hours ago, 4n2t0 said:

 

I understand your nervousness as a new loader, we were all there once. Try to stick with published data whenever possible but sometimes, like in your case, published data from the powder manufacturer doesn't exist for your bullet weight and construction (Titegroup+147gr lead/coated lead bullet). When this happens I reference several manuals and or collect as much information from the web as possible and start with the general consensus charge. When trying to duplicate a load bullet weight and construction matter most. For instance; from my previous example you can assume that any 147gr FMJ loaded with 3.6gr of Titegroup will produce similar velocities when fired from a 4" barrel. Why? Because the bullet weight (147gr), construction (FMJ) and barrel length (4") are all the same. The ogive of the bullet, barrel and magazine all potentially affect the OAL so that figure should always be determined on your own (as you did by following Wobbly's post).

 

P.S. Darrell's data might come in handy (147gr coated lead w/ Titegroup).

 

test.thumb.png.3b8e5b0de459ecce2350327065378bcc.png

 

Thanks yes Darrell's (?) data is very handy!  I hope to get a few rounds loaded this weekend and appreciate the advice.

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16 hours ago, belus said:

 


I think you might already be at minor PF with 3.2 of Titegroup behind a 147gr. I would't load higher than that until you've chronoed it, but I also think 3.2gr at 1.08" will be fine. I haven't worked up a load with Titegroup yet because I have some other powder to burn through first, though I expect to use 3.0gr in my final load with a 147 coated bullet.

Since you're also new to reloading in general, be very careful. Titegroup is easy to double charge and a couple months ago we went through a saga on these forums after a new reloader blew up his gun.

 

What press are you loading on?

I would generally discourage someone from starting to reload with Titegroup. If you can swing a pound of Universal, Unique, 700X, Win 321, or Red Dot at a local store that might be a safer introduction. Could be tough to find in this environment though.

Here's the thread from a guy who blew up his X5 with a double charge of TG on a Lee press. His load was 3.0 of TG and a 147gr.  The first reply correctly predicts he was double charging cases and not noticing it.

 

Yeah, I read that post and his situation is very similar to mine.  I was perfectly happy buying Fed Syntech!!!

 

I am aware of the issues and thought about getting a different powder to start but already have the TG and it has been difficult to even find some of the other powders.  I am loading on a new Dillon XL750 I posted a pic in my thread on asking advice. 

 

Honestly, I dont see how you can even double charge a round on an auto indexing progressive press?  I plan to go slow and watch everything and individually feed the bullets.  I am planning to only run 100 rounds to start and I am going to weigh, measure and case gauge all of them.

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On 9/19/2020 at 7:02 AM, ML123 said:

Honestly, I dont see how you can even double charge a round on an auto indexing progressive press?  I plan to go slow and watch everything and individually feed the bullets.  I am planning to only run 100 rounds to start and I am going to weigh, measure and case gauge all of them.


That previous thread we both read was also on an auto-indexing press, it just happened to be made by Lee.  You only need to move the handle a couple inches to double charge and it usually happens while you're distracted trying to trouble shoot something else.  It's definitely easy to do. I haven't double charged on a 650/750, but I have made a couple squibs. I think it's a disservice to new reloaders to recommend auto-indexing presses under the guise of them being safer or foolproof.  In contrast, I've never created a squib or a double charge on the 550.

Your first dozen or two rounds should probably only have one case on the shell plate at a time if you're just starting.

Edited by belus
some awful spelling errors
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13 hours ago, belus said:


That previous thread on we both read was also on an auto-indexing press, it just happened to be made by Lee.  You only need to move the handle a couple inches to double charge and it usually happens while you're distracted trying to trouble shoot something else.  It's definitely easy to do. I haven't double charged on a 650/750, but I have made a couple squibs. I think it's a disservice to new reloaders to recommend auto-indexing presses under the guess of them being safer or foolproof.  In contrast, I've never created a squib or a double charge on the 550.

Your first dozen or two rounds should probably only have one case on the shell plate at a time if you're just starting.

I went back and re-read mos of that thread since I read it before I decided I was going to get into reloading.  I went out and checked my Dillon and yeah if you only pull the handle 1/3 of the way it can reset and double charge.  Thanks for the advice and I will probably only load one at a time on the shell plate.  I may switch to N320 too, it seems to have good reviews and cleaner than TG plus much harder to double charge.

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Hope this helps:

 

1. TG loads just fine and like all high density powders the case can be double charges easier. So, just make sure your loading process is consistent. Nothing to be afraid of.

 

2. I loaded 1.08 147 RN coated over 3.1 grains of TG for a Shadow 2 (10k BTW) with zero issues.  Change bullets because that short and deep into the case was a pain. CBC brass tended to bulge.

 

3. Loading 124 RMR JHP .355 over 3.8 Sport Pistol for a PCC at 1.08.  Works fine. 
 

Build a loading process which is reliable, has checks, crank away, and then go shoot. 

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On 9/21/2020 at 7:13 AM, ML123 said:

I went out and checked my Dillon and yeah if you only pull the handle 1/3 of the way it can reset and double charge. 

What cartridge did you test this with? 

On my 650, with either 9mm or .40 a 1/3 pull of the handle doesn't get the case close enough to the power drop to activate it.  On the 650 the case is used to activate the powder drop, together with the handle being in the down position.  I can picture a tall case being able to active the powder drop at 1/3 pull, but not your typical pistol case; maybe I'm overlooking something....

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On 9/24/2020 at 6:19 PM, muncie21 said:

What cartridge did you test this with? 

On my 650, with either 9mm or .40 a 1/3 pull of the handle doesn't get the case close enough to the power drop to activate it.  On the 650 the case is used to activate the powder drop, together with the handle being in the down position.  I can picture a tall case being able to active the powder drop at 1/3 pull, but not your typical pistol case; maybe I'm overlooking something....


You're thinking of this backwards.  From the ram fully up you only need to drop it about 1/3 of a stroke to reset the powder measure, but 1/3 of a stroke down from top is not enough to index the shell plate.  If you're tinkering with something near the top of the stroke and move it down to see what's happening you could be setting yourself up for a double charge.

 

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Anytime there is a hiccup in operation of an indexing press it is probably best practice to stop and investigate all powder loads currently in the shell plate.  I will always pull the bullet from the bullet feeder station and the powder drop station and dump those casing back into the powder hopper.  Those casings have live primers so I will set them aside to load at the end of the session.  After recently being at a match where a suspected double charge blew up a gun I went from observing the powder level in those casings located at those stations during a press malfunction to completely just dumping them.  Looking for a camera to make watching powder drops easier.

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3 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

Anytime there is a hiccup in operation of an indexing press it is probably best practice to stop and investigate all powder loads currently in the shell plate.  I will always pull the bullet from the bullet feeder station and the powder drop station and dump those casing back into the powder hopper.  Those casings have live primers so I will set them aside to load at the end of the session.  After recently being at a match where a suspected double charge blew up a gun I went from observing the powder level in those casings located at those stations during a press malfunction to completely just dumping them.  Looking for a camera to make watching powder drops easier.

Thanks as someone new to this I find myself doing this quite a bit.  I have been pulling shells off the plate too.  I am also weighing all the rounds to be double sure.  I had one end up being really light and I suspected a squib load, I pulled the bullet and it had the correct powder charge ended up being a .380 case lol.

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19 hours ago, ML123 said:

I had one end up being really light and I suspected a squib load, I pulled the bullet and it had the correct powder charge ended up being a .380 case lol.


It's worth sorting your brass before loading. One of the better ways mentioned on this forum is to get a couple .40sw trays and use them to transfer your brass from one container to another. The short or tall brass becomes obvious when compared with others and the depth of the tray itself.

Another reason people pay $100 for a 100 round case gauge is that it lets them inspect each loaded round efficiently. Tall primers or other flaws are quick to spot when everything is laying flush, and you can easily dump them into an MTM type case.

I don't think you'll catch squibs or double charges by weighting 9mm minor. 4gr is just not enough notice in the variation of bullet and case weights. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/18/2020 at 11:33 AM, ML123 said:

 

 

 

On 9/19/2020 at 7:02 AM, ML123 said:

Yeah, I read that post and his situation is very similar to mine.  I was perfectly happy buying Fed Syntech!!!

 

I am aware of the issues and thought about getting a different powder to start but already have the TG and it has been difficult to even find some of the other powders.  I am loading on a new Dillon XL750 I posted a pic in my thread on asking advice. 

 

Honestly, I dont see how you can even double charge a round on an auto indexing progressive press?  I plan to go slow and watch everything and individually feed the bullets.  I am planning to only run 100 rounds to start and I am going to weigh, measure and case gauge all of them.

Look into getting a powder cop for your press.

Edited by Harrys
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On 9/30/2020 at 11:53 AM, belus said:


It's worth sorting your brass before loading. One of the better ways mentioned on this forum is to get a couple .40sw trays and use them to transfer your brass from one container to another. The short or tall brass becomes obvious when compared with others and the depth of the tray itself.

Another reason people pay $100 for a 100 round case gauge is that it lets them inspect each loaded round efficiently. Tall primers or other flaws are quick to spot when everything is laying flush, and you can easily dump them into an MTM type case.

I don't think you'll catch squibs or double charges by weighting 9mm minor. 4gr is just not enough notice in the variation of bullet and case weights. 

Ok I am now sorting all my brass lol!  I did find several more .380 cases and .22Lr cases inside 9mm cases which took out a depriming pin on me already.

 

I have been chasing getting this press set up to run the same bullet OAL twice and it has been frustrating.  Is it me or is there a significant difference in OAL with the brass you use? 

 

I have a bunch of mixed once fired range brass.  If I set the seating die up at 1.080 and just dump in unsorted brass I was getting anywhere from 1.074 to 1.094 lengths.  I adjusted, re-adjusted, adjusted again then replaced the Lee seating die with a dillon, nessed with the shell plate, went over all the die rings etc, it was still the same.

 

So I sorted the brass so I could load everything and get exactly the same results and it seems to have worked.  I am getting very consistent lengths but have a significant difference in OAL with the type of brass I load.  Is this normal or am I still doing something wrong with my press setup?

 

I started with the four headstamps I seemed to have the most of on hand, FC, Blazer, S&B, *USA*

 

FC cases for 100rds is SPOT on with what I set up the press for 1.079-1.082 OAL.  Blazer was also  very consistent but a tad longer 1.080-1.083 I ran 200rds of them.

 

Then I tried S&B some *USA* brass which were both in the 1.090-1.094 range.  I ran at least 20rds of each and all of them were very consistent in length and all of them to long for my CZ chamber and failed to plunk.

 

I have to try Winchester which I plan to do today, I also have enough R&P try and load the rest I need to sort more brass to get enough to load.

 

Is this normal?


 

Edited by ML123
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With mixed brass on a progressive press, you're going to see some variation in OAL.  Unless you're shooting bullseye or some other sport requiring extreme accuracy, I wouldn't sweat small variations in the OAL.  Once you understand average max variance, simply adjust for this so that all loaded rounds are less than max and therefore will plunk/spin freely. 

As an example, when I load for my CZ, I'm targeting 1.08 OAL, however I know from experience that because I'm using mixed brass and a progressive press my actual OAL can vary from 1.075-1.092, with most of the rounds in the 1.08 range.  For my CZs 1.09x still plunks, spins, loads/ejects fine, so I accept this variability.

 

Remember, this needs to be done for each bullet type/weight/manufacturer, as the bullet profiles may be different, which in turn will affect what will plunk/spin at a given OAL. 

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