Steve Koski Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 If the written stage briefing says “start outside the shooting area” can you have 1 foot in and 1 foot out? The rulebook doesn’t seem to address this specifically, I was told there may be some NROI ruling about start positions, but I can’t seem to find it. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 One should automatically think not. If it says "engage targets from within the shooting area" and you take a shot with one foot in and the other out its a procedural per shot fired for a foot fault.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmoreno88 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Every match I've gone to has always been both feet completely out. Not even touching the outline of the box unless stated for the xs Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Locally I see starting position "standing outside the box facing downrange with toes touching the X". Good WSB's eliminate a lot of questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 To answer the original question, if that is all the WSB says about the Starting Position, then one foot in and one foot out would be legal. So would both feet out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 agree with above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 18 minutes ago, rowdyb said: agree with above. I’ll second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Yep. That particular ruling is one if the wierder parts of our sport, but at least it's understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 long discussion about this last year. one foot in and one foot out is definitely NOT outside (or inside) the shooting area for speakers of the english language, just like wearing pants but no shirt is neither 'dressed' nor 'undressed'. However, Troy ruled that faulting is the same as being outside, so we have all agreed to be wrong together. Which is fine with me, since it's consistent, even tho the logic behind the ruling is quite silly. If you actually care about where people start, specify it, like 'both feet completely outside the shooting area', or something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, motosapiens said: long discussion about this last year. one foot in and one foot out is definitely NOT outside (or inside) the shooting area for speakers of the english language, just like wearing pants but no shirt is neither 'dressed' nor 'undressed'. However, Troy ruled that faulting is the same as being outside, so we have all agreed to be wrong together. Which is fine with me, since it's consistent, even tho the logic behind the ruling is quite silly. If you actually care about where people start, specify it, like 'both feet completely outside the shooting area', or something similar. Moto, you should right clarifications for USPSA, this is nice :-) Edited December 18, 2017 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Both feet in but one toe barely touching something outside. If you are going to game it then game it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 9 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said: Both feet in but one toe barely touching something outside. If you are going to game it then game it. Yeah, but is that really going to help you? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 1 minute ago, teros135 said: Yeah, but is that really going to help you? Really? Technically Yes. Think about it. One foot in and one foot out is one less step you have to take before starting to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, stick said: Technically Yes. Think about it. One foot in and one foot out is one less step you have to take before starting to shoot. i urge you to do some testing and see how much faster it makes you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Just now, motosapiens said: i urge you to do some testing and see how much faster it makes you. I'm slow. It won't help me a bit. If the WSB says outside the box, then I would be completely outside the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, stick said: I'm slow. It won't help me a bit. If the WSB says outside the box, then I would be completely outside the box. it doesn't help me a bit either. I can step with both feet and shoot accurately in the same time that I can step with one foot and shoot accurately. Drawing and aiming takes longer than stepping for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 40 minutes ago, stick said: Technically Yes. Think about it. One foot in and one foot out is one less step you have to take before starting to shoot. Yes, but that makes the first step more awkward. I'm not sure how much time that saves for us mere mortals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 3 hours ago, teros135 said: Yeah, but is that really going to help you? Really? So far, thousands of rounds in practice ain't done squat, so I'm thinking that this toe footsie thing might be the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 3 hours ago, teros135 said: Yeah, but is that really going to help you? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Just now, Sarge said: 3 hours ago, teros135 said: Yeah, but is that really going to help you? Really? I would think in certain situations it would help a lot. Standing right in front of a port with toe touching a clump of grass just in front of the fault line as opposed to running five steps to get there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer002 Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 (edited) This is always a fun discussion. First, the answer is as said above, if you would be considered making a foot fault, you are outside the shooting area. If the WSB simply says standing outside the shooting area, this applies. Is it an advantage? As Sarge said, its situational. Sometimes it makes no difference whatsoever. Other times, it can be huge. I have two recent examples of it being an advantage. I will also mention, there can be an even a larger advantage when shooting PCC. The first example is a stage that started in a rearward position in relation to the rest of the stage, facing barrels with a head shot fairly close at about six foot height over one of the barrels. There were walls on both sides of the barrels making a very small/tight area to step into to engage the head shot, which was the only target to be engaged from the small area before moving on to the rest of the stage which was a semicircle going around the front of the barrels. The WSB dictated the start to be "outside the shooting area with toes on marks." The marks were black X's on top of yellow wood slat borders. The wood slat border was flush with the rear ends of the walls that boxed in the small shooting area for the head shot. So, basically, the idea was to have to step forward, into the small area, engage the head shot, then have to back out and around the walls either left or right for the rest of the stage. I started standing with toes on X's, and on the beep I simply drew as I stood up on my tip toes and shot the head shot. It kept me from having to step forward, and worse, backward, saving a ton of time compared to how most shot it. Second example was just tonight. Shot PCC. One of the stages was a small, 16 round "speed stage." We often do these as a second course in a bay with a classifier. The shorter the course, the more the advantage. If I gain one second on a >7 second stage, then I am ahead. The WSB start was simply, "from outside shooting area." I started in the PCC default start position with stock on belt, muzzle downrange. I placed one foot in the shooting area and one on the wood slat border with my heel on the floor outside the shooting area = "faulting." On the beep I raised my heel up far enough to no longer be touching the area outside the shooting area while shouldering the PCC to an open target about 10 yards away. I will bet I gained at least one second on most of the field and about half a second on the top shooters. Some of which even started one foot out and one foot in. It REALLY makes a difference in PCC start. The shorter the course, the more the advantage depending on how everyone else does things. Most people, even top shooters if the target is not wide open, even after one step will wait to stop motion and "plant" before shooting. This can easily be a full second or more added. If its a 30 second stage, maybe not such an advantage, given all things equal. But on a small stage, it can be big. And shooting PCC, it can be as big as not having to face up range to start El Presidente. It absolutely falls into the "gaming" category, and I personally think it adds something to the game, because even knowing the rule, not everyone will approach it the same way. Sometimes it doesn't matter. Recognizing when it does can be huge. Edited December 30, 2017 by Hammer002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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