Grip technique and strength

[StuckinMS]

On 2/22/2018 at 1:49 PM, N3WWN said:

 

Let's not downplay proper grip.    Part of proper grip is having the strength to stop the gun from moving within your hands.  Things like grip technique (particularly hand placement) can alter how much strength is needed to satisfactorily control the gun but, in most cases, more strength = better control.

 

I'm not talking about stopping the gun from moving at all, but rather not letting the gun slip in your hands when it recoils.  If the gun moves within your grip, the sights will not return consistently and you will need to adjust your grip.

 

I do agree with you that shedding some pounds and working on movement are important, too... but no more important than any other low hanging fruits for any particular competitor.

 

This is where self-analysis (or some constructive criticism from other shooters) comes into play.   Determine what your weaknesses are and work on them.

 

Sights not returning consistently?  You need to work on your grip.  That may be your hand strength or your technique.

 

Hand strength not the problem?  Just maintain your current grip strength for the time being and work on what is the problem.

 

Sights returning consistently?  There's probably things other than grip that would have higher returns on the time and effort that you invest in your training.  But, you wouldn't ignore your grip and let that skill fade as you work on other things... you'd maintain it.

 

As a personal example, at the end of 2016, I wasn't having any "problems" with my grip, but I let it deteriorate over the winter (dry fire only, no live fire) while I worked on other skills.  In the spring of 2017, I had all sorts of issues with my grip.  The other skills that I really focused on over the winter, which were transitions and reloads, were much better in 2017 than in 2016, but my scores didn't improve until I got my grip back up to par again. 

 

While I was improving my grip, I decided to improve my diet, start exercising more and to add movement drills into my practices.  I went into maintenance mode with the other skills.  By mid-2017, my grip was no longer a weakness, though I wouldn't exactly call it a strength, either.  Then, by the end of 2017, I'd lost 40 pounds and can now navigate field courses a lot better than I ever could before.  

 

Post-season analysis of my shooting pointed back to my grip being one of the two skills that could be improved with the most payback.  The other skill was vision.  For me, developing these skills has gone hand in hand; as I expand my visual awareness of what the gun is doing, I have to process the visual input faster, which tells me more about how my grip is doing.   

 

I'm "interested" in where the front sight is going to be before I reach my final firing grip (from draws, transfers, remounts after movement, etc).  I can tell if my grip was good before the sights are between my eye and the target both by sight and by touch, so it takes me less time to confirm my sight picture (or rather, I am starting to confirm my sight picture sooner) and I can fire the shot sooner.

 

I'm "interested" in how changes in my grip affect the movement of the sights when I squeeze the trigger.   This means I have to see everything faster - during a transition, for instance, my eyes are going from the sights to the next target, I'm aware of when the sights start to cover the new target, I am aware of when the sights are aligned for an acceptable shot in the scoring area and I'm aware of what happens to the sights as I pull the trigger.  This awareness tells me if my grip is improving or not.

 

I no longer ignore any of the other skills and work on maintaining all of them in the off-season as best I can.   

 

In summary, I don't think any of the skills are overrated.  The better my grip technique and the stronger my grip strength, the better my sights return and my gun moves less.  When my gun moves less, it's easier for me to pay attention to what movement remains.  That helps me know what's happening during entries, exits, SOTM ... in short, improved shot calling. 

Well put!  The grip is explained by many pros in many ways.  Kinda got to put your time in, apply a few different techniques and only time will tell you what works best for you.  Lots of dry fire, mixing in dummy rounds in random order in live fire practice, etc. Are good ways to keep you honest.  Good sight focus also helps, I even see Olympic air gun shooters use plugs and muffs to keep sound out of the equation.  Lots of areas to work on in getting to where you properly manipulate the trigger.  Trial & error is the basic approach to this game.  Rob Vogel uses an entirely different method than Rob Leatham, but both are excellent shooters.  

[Eureka1911]

So I was at the range today. Seems like I've got a decent amount of grip strength. 

 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Eureka1911

[StuckinMS]

As long as you can manipulate the trigger without disturbing the gun, you are good.  Definitely looks like the grips are aggressive enough! 

[Eureka1911]

These are the VZ Recons. I had VZ Operator IIs and they were nice too. But these things make your hand feel like it's glued to the gun! They're like little suction cups.

[littlewing6283]

whats helped me with grip on my non dominant hand has been the grip master grip excercisers. I had hand surgery a couple of years ago so I had it laying around in different weight. 

[SDL]

I use a spring grip trainer at work. Its next to my mouse. If you use a grip strengthener yo also should do hand opening exercises with wide rubber bands around all your fingers to train the other direction. Before someone else told me this just using the gripper started hurting my arms.

[gsc0tt]

Just took TPC with ron avery, girpping the gun completely different now.

 

The main effect is a completely different sensation, that now makes every other piece of the fundamentals much easier and simpler.

[candiru]

Just took TPC with ron avery, girpping the gun completely different now.
 
The main effect is a completely different sensation, that now makes every other piece of the fundamentals much easier and simpler.

Can you describe what you changed?

[Blackstone45]

16 hours ago, gsc0tt said:

Just took TPC with ron avery, girpping the gun completely different now.

 

The main effect is a completely different sensation, that now makes every other piece of the fundamentals much easier and simpler.

yeah would love to know what you're doing differently now

[gsc0tt]

On 3/22/2018 at 9:24 PM, candiru said:

Can you describe what you changed?

 

Using relaxed (yes relaxed) muscles putting pressure onto the gun. Using skeletal structure to add leverage pressure instead of muscle tensions, the releaxed muscle is more consistent and also creates more friction.

 

[gsc0tt]

On 3/23/2018 at 6:44 AM, Blackstone45 said:

yeah would love to know what you're doing differently now

 

For me personally i can explain this:

 

I was having trouble with transitions with my shadow 2 (it is front heavy, inertia so on, to an extent there was no way around those factors). However, once i started receving a different feeling in recoil from being much more relaxed and a lack of muscle tension, transitions became much easier.

 

Prior to the class i was trying to "crush" the gun with upper body and hand strength, and "muscle" the transitions. I think when doing things my old personal way, it would create an energy dump trying to control recoil and than another trying to transition, which compiled into a big mess.

[Wrathen]

There is a lot of great information in this thread and I think I need to work more in grip and dryfire drills.... maybe I should setup a time to do them. 

 

How much time per day do you guys spend? Is there an optimal amount? I could squeeze in 15mins a day without much trouble 

[Jake Di Vita]

10 hours ago, gsc0tt said:

 

Using relaxed (yes relaxed) muscles putting pressure onto the gun. Using skeletal structure to add leverage pressure instead of muscle tensions, the releaxed muscle is more consistent and also creates more friction.

 

 

I'm sorry but this literally makes no sense at all from a bio mechanical position. How exactly do you think relaxed musculature is putting pressure into the gun? How exactly are you using your skeletal structure to add leverage and what are you adding leverage to? How do you think you are controlling skeletal position if you aren't tensing any muscles? How is relaxed muscle more consistent? How does relaxed muscle create more friction? What are you creating that friction against? Creates more friction? More than what? What data do you have that corroborates your position that what you're doing now is better than what you were doing before?

 

10 hours ago, gsc0tt said:

However, once i started receving a different feeling in recoil from being much more relaxed and a lack of muscle tension, transitions became much easier.

 

How did transitions become "easier"? What was the problem you were having with them before?

 

10 hours ago, gsc0tt said:

Prior to the class i was trying to "crush" the gun with upper body and hand strength, and "muscle" the transitions. I think when doing things my old personal way, it would create an energy dump trying to control recoil and than another trying to transition, which compiled into a big mess.

 

What does muscling the transitions mean? Create an energy dump? What does that even mean? You're using a bunch of funky terms to describe something without actually describing it at all. 

 

What class are you?

 

Here's the thing. It's actually hard to learn to apply force into the gun in the correct way consistently. It takes consistent work over a long period of time. It sounds to me like you chucked it out the window prematurely. Don't delude yourself into believing that the easy way is the best way, as it almost never is.

 

26 minutes ago, Wrathen said:

How much time per day do you guys spend? Is there an optimal amount? I could squeeze in 15mins a day without much trouble 

 

As of today I'm averaging 47 minutes per day of dryfire for the year. There is no optimal amount. 15 minutes a day is infinitely better than nothing.

[CrashDodson]

43 minutes ago, Wrathen said:

There is a lot of great information in this thread and I think I need to work more in grip and dryfire drills.... maybe I should setup a time to do them. 

 

How much time per day do you guys spend? Is there an optimal amount? I could squeeze in 15mins a day without much trouble 

 

I went from C to M in about 4 months of focused dry firing 30-60 mins twice a day 5-6 days a week.  Along with live fire practice of about 3-4 times per month.  This along with in person and virtual training/coaching from several GM's.  It really depends on what you want out of it, and for how long you can be focused.  There are several times I find myself going through the motions but not bringing any sort of focus or intensity.  When that happens I find myself using a weak grip or not calling shots.  I strive for a minimum of 15 minutes a day,  but not sure how much improvement you can get with only that small amount of dry fire.  To me, 15 mins is more of just maintaining basic gun handling.  

[gsc0tt]

30 minutes ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

I'm sorry but this literally makes no sense at all from a bio mechanical position. How exactly do you think relaxed musculature is putting pressure into the gun? How exactly are you using your skeletal structure to add leverage and what are you adding leverage to? How do you think you are controlling skeletal position if you aren't tensing any muscles? How is relaxed muscle more consistent? How does relaxed muscle create more friction? What are you creating that friction against? Creates more friction? More than what? What data do you have that corroborates your position that what you're doing now is better than what you were doing before?

 

 

How did transitions become "easier"? What was the problem you were having with them before?

 

 

What does muscling the transitions mean? Create an energy dump? What does that even mean? You're using a bunch of funky terms to describe something without actually describing it at all. 

 

What class are you?

 

Here's the thing. It's actually hard to learn to apply force into the gun in the correct way consistently. It takes consistent work over a long period of time. It sounds to me like you chucked it out the window prematurely. Don't delude yourself into believing that the easy way is the best way, as it almost never is.

 

 

As of today I'm averaging 47 minutes per day of dryfire for the year. There is no optimal amount. 15 minutes a day is infinitely better than nothing.

 

This is why my first post is was so ambiguous, figured attempting to paraphrase and describe what I discovered at TPC would just initiate flaming, true

 

Lots of Ron Avery videos on youtube, check them out and if they seem interesting go for class. If not then keep on trucking

[Jake Di Vita]

Just now, gsc0tt said:

Lots of Ron Avery videos on youtube, check them out and if they seem interesting go for class. If not then keep on trucking

 

I've seen them.

 

Funny that people like you can never answer my questions.

 

Best of luck in your future training and matches.

[gsc0tt]

Just now, Jake Di Vita said:

 

I've seen them.

 

Funny that people like you can never answer my questions.

 

Best of luck in your future training and matches.

 

Leverage pressure:

 

Treat your fingers at your front strap like a hinge point 

As you bring your gun up from a low ready position, if your pivot point is set, your hand and forearms will close (use imagery of a nut cracker)

[DukeEB]

15 minutes ago, gsc0tt said:

 

Leverage pressure:

 

Treat your fingers at your front strap like a hinge point 

As you bring your gun up from a low ready position, if your pivot point is set, your hand and forearms will close (use imagery of a nut cracker)

--

Edited March 27, 2018 by DukeEB

[Jake Di Vita]

55 minutes ago, gsc0tt said:

 

Leverage pressure:

 

Treat your fingers at your front strap like a hinge point 

As you bring your gun up from a low ready position, if your pivot point is set, your hand and forearms will close (use imagery of a nut cracker)

 

Ok. What is the goal of this position? Where on the gun are you applying the leverage and pressure? This is a critical piece of the interface between your hands and the gun.

 

When it comes to recoil management, the ideal point of leverage on the gun is along the barrel axis near the tip of the barrel. Obviously, we cannot grip a gun there, so we make compromises on the grip to where it is practical, but still gets as close to that ideal leverage point as possible. You don't just end up there by magic. You need to put yourself into that position and then hold the integrity of it while shooting. That critical piece I referred to is it is not enough to just be contacting the gun at a good leverage point. You need to do something with that ideal position. We want to apply that force as close to the ideal leverage point as possible to have the best mechanical efficiency available. I don't think any of these points are negotiable.

 

So from that perspective, do you think the nut cracker technique is consistent with the premise I outlined above?

[gsc0tt]

1 minute ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

Ok. What is the goal of this position? Where on the gun are you applying the leverage and pressure? This is a critical piece of the interface between your hands and the gun.

 

When it comes to recoil management, the ideal point of leverage on the gun is along the barrel axis near the tip of the barrel. Obviously, we cannot grip a gun there, so we make compromises on the grip to where it is practical, but still gets as close to that ideal leverage point as possible. You don't just end up there by magic. You need to put yourself into that position and then hold the integrity of it while shooting. That critical piece I referred to is it is not enough to just be contacting the gun at a good leverage point. You need to do something with that ideal position. We want to apply that force as close to the ideal leverage point as possible to have the best mechanical efficiency available. I don't think any of these points are negotiable.

 

So from that perspective, do you think the nut cracker technique is consistent with the premise I outlined above?

 

High to the bore line as possible, always

 

Nutcracker [skeletal structure] leverage imagery (referring to inward pressure onto the grip of the gun with relaxed hand muscles/meat below thumbs) is what came to mind of an example of applying pressure with skeletal leverage instead of muscle tension

[CrashDodson]

1 minute ago, gsc0tt said:

 

High to the bore line as possible, always

 

Nutcracker [skeletal structure] leverage imagery (referring to inward pressure onto the grip of the gun with relaxed hand muscles/meat below thumbs) is what came to mind of an example of applying pressure with skeletal leverage instead of muscle tension

 

Last i understood of biology muscles/tendons move the skeleton.  How can one apply pressure with their "skeletal structure" without using their muscles?  I could just be completely ignorant on the subject but I am lost AF.  

[Jake Di Vita]

3 minutes ago, gsc0tt said:

 

High to the bore line as possible, always

 

 

Absolutely, I agree. Not only high, but inward as well.

 

3 minutes ago, gsc0tt said:

Nutcracker [skeletal structure] leverage imagery (referring to inward pressure onto the grip of the gun with relaxed hand muscles/meat below thumbs) is what came to mind of an example of applying pressure with skeletal leverage instead of muscle tension

 

Only inward pressure on the grip is not applying the force towards the barrel axis. The difference is the internal rotation needs to be done at the height of the thumbs to try and get the line of force as close to going through the very center of the barrel as possible.

 

When you say skeletal leverage, I think what you're really trying to say is body position. The problem is you need muscle tension to achieve this position. I don't see the point in "relaxing" once you've gotten your body into the ideal position. First of all, if you relaxed you would instantly lose the position. Second of all, that's the best possible place to apply force. Third, you have to apply force to generate friction and more friction is a good thing. The problem is it is hard to apply that force consistently. That doesn't mean you stop and go to relax mode, it means there is more training to be done to make applying large amounts of force into the gun from the ideal position extremely consistent. It can be done. I have a piece of general advice I give to people that I teach....if you're comfortable, it's probably at the least less than ideal.

 

You can become a really good shooter by operating with a relaxed methodology. I firmly believe it has a lower ceiling than a more active approach.

[gsc0tt]

1 minute ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

Absolutely, I agree. Not only high, but inward as well.

 

 

Only inward pressure on the grip is not applying the force towards the barrel axis. The difference is the internal rotation needs to be done at the height of the thumbs to try and get the line of force as close to going through the very center of the barrel as possible.

 

When you say skeletal leverage, I think what you're really trying to say is body position. The problem is you need muscle tension to achieve this position. I don't see the point in "relaxing" once you've gotten your body into the ideal position. First of all, if you relaxed you would instantly lose the position. Second of all, that's the best possible place to apply force. Third, you have to apply force to generate friction and more friction is a good thing. The problem is it is hard to apply that force consistently. That doesn't mean you stop and go to relax mode, it means there is more training to be done to make applying large amounts of force into the gun from the ideal position extremely consistent. It can be done. I have a piece of general advice I give to people that I teach....if you're comfortable, it's probably at the least less than ideal.

 

You can become a really good shooter by operating with a relaxed methodology. I firmly believe it has a lower ceiling than a more active approach.

 

Its definitely not relaxing after everything is set, just like you say there is no point in relaxing and un-doing all the necessary tension that was just set up.

 

Initial relaxation as a baseline then adding only what is necessary (which yes is a decent amount to shoot fast).

 

11 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

 

Last i understood of biology muscles/tendons move the skeleton.  How can one apply pressure with their "skeletal structure" without using their muscles?  I could just be completely ignorant on the subject but I am lost AF.  

 

Adding pressure at the hands without adding tension at hand muscles, sorry didn't mean use no muscles and tension at all and be a big blob

 

-If you put your finger inside a nut cracker and close it, the most efficient point would be to operate it at the very end of the arms to get the greatest effect with least input (leverage). The clamping force is being derived from a different location of where the actual clamping point is, being applied through leverage

[CHA-LEE]

This is a general question to everyone in this thread. Have you used a grip dyno to measure the maximum pounds of grip force you can produce with each hand? If you haven't, then start with that measurement so you actually know where you are at. How much grip strength you feel like you are producing doesn't matter in the big picture. Without knowing how "strong" you grip strength is in measurable pounds of force its very difficult to correlate grip training to actual strength gains. From my experience on the range and training others the vast majority of people who believe they are gripping the gun "HARD" are actually not when you measure their grip strength. Perceived grip strength though feeling like you are gripping hard and proven grip strength which is actually measured are two completely different things. Significant pounds (100+ lbs per hand) of grip force is needed to effectively manage recoil. 

[DukeEB]

2 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

This is a general question to everyone in this thread. Have you used a grip dyno to measure the maximum pounds of grip force you can produce with each hand? If you haven't, then start with that measurement so you actually know where you are at. How much grip strength you feel like you are producing doesn't matter in the big picture. Without knowing how "strong" you grip strength is in measurable pounds of force its very difficult to correlate grip training to actual strength gains. From my experience on the range and training others the vast majority of people who believe they are gripping the gun "HARD" are actually not when you measure their grip strength. Perceived grip strength though feeling like you are gripping hard and proven grip strength which is actually measured are two completely different things. Significant pounds (100+ lbs per hand) of grip force is needed to effectively manage recoil. 

What dyno would you recommend?