Advice - Old School Open Gun

[DWS]

Greetings,

 

First post, have lurked/read for a while.

 

I recently picked up an old school open gun in .38 super from a shooter that retired and was moving.  It came with a set of Dillon dies, Bianchi rig, mags, ammo at what I think is a good price  (< $500) and need some advice as I've not shot open nor owned an open gun.

 

Note, I've wanted to shoot open for a while, I'll be 60 in a few years and if I don't start soon ... we all know life goes by too fast

 

The pistol is built on a Caspian frame/slide, Tasco Pro Point - please see attached.

 

Barrel is marked Hybricomp cal .355 which appears to be one of the Schuemann barrels.

 

Question 1:

Since the red dot works, I'm thinking of just leaving it for now and then perhaps at some point upgrading to a something like a C-More - assuming a C-More can be mounted without too much trouble - thoughts on doing that ?

 

The ammo that came with it (200 rounds)  is marked as 125 FMJ, 8.5 grains 4756 and is supposed to chrono at 1425 to meet the old PF.

 

I doubt that I'll shoot the ammo, has to be at least 10 years old.

 

Question 2:

As I load primarily .45 with Winchester 231, once I order some 125 grain FMJ, I'll probably try some 231 and then maybe move to HS-6.

Advice on working up a load ?

Powders to consider ?

Start slow, work up and find what works ?

May have to tune/replace spring and buffer ?

 

Question 3:

After disassembly, the pistol seems in decent shape, no idea of the round count.

Some nicks and scratches.

As you can see the mount is tapped/mounted to the frame.

The barrel, after cleaning is nice bright

Some carbon fouling on the comp.

Anything else to look for, be aware of ?

 

Thanks in advance,

Dennis

 

 

 

M

[digi531]

Hello, first off, you buying price was quite good, old school gun doesn't mean it's not a good shooter.  Before you spend more money I would first check accuracy from a rest at say twenty five yards.  The barrel may be shiny but that won't indicate accuracy and you may need a new barrel, however it may be just fine too.  If accuracy test are good then leave that setup, should work just fine even at a lower PF of say 170 - 173.  I would change out all springs and start with an 8 or 9 # recoil spring and 17 # hammer spring along with a new sear spring. You should strip the gun down and check wear on the sear and hammer for safety reasons.  The scope mount is fine and should accept a C- More railway with no issues and I  would make that change.

 

 

.  The numbers on the ammo indicate a PF of 178 if it's correct and that setup can easily handle it and I would I would try a few of those rounds.  However, if that worries you then wait and load some rounds with a usual type powder such as VV 3N38, 3N37, N350 ( my choice) or HS 6 and develope a load.  Since your new to open division that setup will suit you just fine, then you can go from there.  Good luck, and welcome to the " dark side "

 

 

 

[Steve RA]

4756 was an excellent open class powder, however, it has now been discontinued.

[DWS]

Digi531 - thank you.

 

That's exactly what I was looking for !

[Intel6]

Sounds like you got a good deal. I still have my Caspian open gun in 38 super,  nothing wrong with it at all. Back in the day the only issue was big sticks but since then there are more options available today.

 

I think your scope and mount are probably your weak spot on  the gun.  I have shot that set up before and I found it top heavy and it balanced very strangely even with the all metal gun. You got lucky that it didn't have one of these Red buff mounts that a lots of people put on Caspian's. I would check the hole pattern but the 3 spaced holes like you have may have been drilled for the standard  C-more Serendipity which would make changing to a C-more extremely easy. Since that seemed to be the standard at that time,  that hole pattern was used by lots of different types of mounts.   

 

In the attached pic you can see my Wayne Bergquist built Caspian with a standard serendipity mounted on it. Also, EGW makes a great slip on mag well for the Caspian frame, I like mine. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Intel6

[GrumpyOne]

As for powders, VV N105, 3N37, 3N38, Autocomp, HS6...231 may be too fast for what you want.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Agree with the WW231 being way too fast ....    

[Steelix]

^ yep what he said. But you said you have or want to try HS6, that's a good powder for super with 124gr bullets. 

[DWS]

4 hours ago, Intel6 said:

Sounds like you got a good deal. I still have my Caspian open gun in 38 super,  nothing wrong with it at all. Back in the day the only issue was big sticks but since then there are more options available today.

 

I think your scope and mount are probably your weak spot on  the gun.  I have shot that set up before and I found it top heavy and it balanced very strangely even with the all metal gun. You got lucky that it didn't have one of these Red buff mounts that a lots of people put on Caspian's. I would check the hole pattern but the 3 spaced holes like you have may have been drilled for the standard  C-more Serendipity which would make changing to a C-more extremely easy. Since that seemed to be the standard at that time,  that hole pattern was used by lots of different types of mounts.   

 

In the attached pic you can see my Wayne Bergquist built Caspian with a standard serendipity mounted on it. Also, EGW makes a great slip on mag well for the Caspian frame, I like mine.

 

Intel6 - thank you !

 

Very nice looking Caspian you have and the EGW slip on mag well looks like a nice upgrade.

 

Dennis

[DWS]

Thanks to all (steelex, hipower, others) for the course correction on the 231.  I will nix that idea.

 

I will look into sourcing some VV or HS6.

[Bamboo]

As others have said that is a nice old Caspian and you got it for a great price.   I like the Caspian frames a lot and have a couple myself.  The weak point was a consistent off the shelf source for mags, and now that MBX is making tanfo/Caspian mags that is a non-issue. 

 

Personally, as already mentioned, I'd put a C-more on there and ditch the pro-point (I still have a Ross Deane modified pdp3 on my workbench as a paper weight).  The screw spacing looks odd in the picture and it is hard to tell if it is the new standard spacing or not.  If it isn't you could get a blank mount from a place like Cheely Custom and drill it to match your gun's spacing.  If it is standard spacing, then your choices are wide open.  (and yeah, I had a Redbuff  on a Caspian frame, good tasco mount back in the day but not good for a c-more!).  Also, I'd get either the EGW mag well or if you can find a Dawson Ice magwell those work well, also. You can pin the EGW magwell in place on the Caspian frame by using a long STI mainspring housing pin for a STI magwell and notching the EGW magwell.  This will keep the EGW magwell from walking on you.  The Trik Trigger from Caspian is also a nice addition, it is a flat trigger and feels great on these guns.  Lastly, if you want grip panals there are a few sources for nice grips.  Alumagrip makes a real nice one, but so does Hogue and  Caspian  and you can find used on these forums on occasion.  If you need grip panels let me know as I have a bunch and have been meaning to do a garage sale in the classifieds.  

 

As Steve said 4756 was a good powder that is now discontinued.  Depending on the age they may be loaded for 175 pf if they were loaded for USPSA.  If you have access to a chrono you could chrono a few and if you feel safe shoot the rest...or just pull them and reuse the case.  

 

The Shuemann barrel is a good barrel, as long as it was fit correctly.  They seem to like jacketed bullets more than coated or lead.  If you are shooting major just pop for some Montana golds or Precision Deltas and get on with the loading.    As for powders, you can search 38 super loads on this forum and find a lot of options.  I have guns with three port Shuemann barrels and they seem to work best with the slower powders and either 115 or 124 gr jacketed bullets.  Personally, I like AA#7 and has been my go-to 38 super major powder for years.  HS-6 is good, but blasty to me.  N105 and 3N38 are good and if you can get some are worth a try.  Also, N350 is good...a little snappy but it is super clean. Autocomp and Silhouette are also good, but are like HS-6 as far as being blasty in a super (just my opinion - you can try them all and tell us what you like!) 

 

Here is a person with a similar post from a while back.  I am "Guest".  My original "Bamboo" account (with a 2006 join date and a few thousand posts was nuked by a forum glitch)

http://forums.brianenos.com/topic/213601-newold-shooter-gear-question/?tab=comments#comment-2376056

 

A little TLC and some updating and that gun will run with the best of them. 

Good Find, and enjoy open (they have cookies, but don't tell anybody!!!)

 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Bamboo

[caspian guy]

With that comp and hybrid and a caspian frame I liked 3n38 and n350.  Hs6 or autocomp would also work ok. Then work your load up till the gun shoots flat and the dot tracks straight.

 

Might also consider 115s if you can't get the dot to track the way you want,  the heavy frame takes the sting out of them and its another variable you can use to tune the way it shoots.

[pskys2]

Looks like a Caspian Hi-cap, had one in the 1990's and really liked it.

The Dot is a PDP4, they were good sights and if it was bullet proofed by someone, like Dr. Dot, it will last forever.

Is it a .38 super/auto comp? or 9mm? that makes a big difference in what powders you use.

 

Might try JHP's instead of FMJ, usually more accurate if the pistol feeds them reliably.

 

Use the HS6 (good powder widely used for 38 supers with comps) not the 231 (too fast of a powder, pressures can spike and won't be as effective in the comp).

I'd go with an 11 lb spring though and work down if needed.  What you will need to look for are:

1) reliability without banging up the frame.

2) See how the dot settles back, it should come down at the same spot.  You can either adjust recoil spring rates (heavier will dip the dot, lighter will have it settle higher).  Another trick was to add 1-3 shok buffs to the recoil guide rod to change where the dot settles back to.

3) Watch the side to side wiggle of the dot. It's not an issue unless the dot doesn't return to center.

4) The dot track is based on fast multiple shots, it will go up and come back to a given point.  If done slow fire it can be made to settle where you want, but takes time.

Some like the Tube Dots, until you get used to finding the dot the tube can help alignment issues.  Once you're used to a dot and the pistol you can investigate a C-more maybe on a sideways mount to get the dot closer to the bore.

Look for cracks at the corners of the ejection port, that's where a problem can start.

CHeck the top lugs for rounding and the lower lugs for peening and/or cracked link.

Edited November 27, 2017 by pskys2
more info

[DWS]

Thanks to everyone for your response's and sharing your experience - what a great forum !

 

I did measure the holes for the mount. Unfortunately, they are non- standard with the distance between the 1'st and 2'nd hole being .75 and the distance between the 2'nd and third hole being about .6.   That said, thanks to Bamboo I now know that I can perhaps source a blank mount and drill it to fit.

 

Dennis

 

 

[caspian guy]

The mount is kinda funky but i used one like it for years and if your gun ejects ok with it there's really not a problem with it.  You have 2 options for putting a cmore on that mount.  You can either get a cmore with the matching railway mount and attach it in place of the tube sight.  Or you could drill and tap 2 holes in the top of the mount and mount the cmore directly to it.

 

[sc68cal]

Congrats on the acquisition. C-more sounds like a good idea - also consider converting from 38 Super to 9mm if you are going to replace the barrel. You won't have to bend over and search for 38 super brass after every stage.

 

I have a Dan Wesson Havoc that is built off a Caspian Frame. I cannot recommend the MBX Extreme magazines for Tango/Caspian enough.

Edited November 30, 2017 by sc68cal

[rishii]

I’m late to the party, I ran a similar gun for years

that looks like an old caspian mount, and their old 3 port comp on a hybicomp barrel

you might check with caspian on the hole spacing, back then the weigend pattern was common

and with that barrel set up, you’ll be venting a ton of gas, hs-6, and silhouette will work, I would also try 115 and 124 bullet weight

 

what I would do, is add grips and a magwell, and go shoot the thing, and make sure it works

the old Tasco PDP scopes were fairly common back then, and we all had a spare in the range bag because they would all break, then once it breaks.

I would ditch the mount, if the hole spacing is not the today’s standard of the c-more pattern, I would get a blank mount and have a gunsmith custom drill for you

 

 

[DWS]

Update:

 

I shot about 40 rounds of the old Ammo and had a couple of rounds that went into battery but the trigger did not seem to reset properly or I did not "get off" the trigger completely (guessing ??) and had to re-rack the slide.

 

I will replace the springs and just ordered a Trik trigger.

 

I have some new powder on order will try VV N350 and report back.

 

Will report back after I load some new rounds, clean and update the springs and trigger.

 

[Steelix]

If the gun has not been cleaned in a long time, the disconnector maybe sticking. That would make your timing off for your second shot. I had this happen to a old gun that I had, and I had to let off the trigger all the way for the second shot. 

[Front Man]

I run N 350 in my Caspian with 115GR bullets.

Love it!

[DWS]

3 hours ago, Front Man said:

I run N 350 in my Caspian with 115GR bullets.

Love it!

Will try some of the 115GR bullet's - thank you.

 

Just received a blank Allchin mount and bought a gently used C-More on the classifieds to update the optics.

 

A shout out to John at Allchin as he was very helpful and sent extra screws with the mount and thumb rest.

[Front Man]

They do shoot soft in my Baster

[CocoBolo]

Nice old gun and you stole it.  I'd keep the tube scope, more accurate and reliable than the C-more, and I have 5 C-more's.

 

Old school likes lots of powder,  N105 and Accurate 7 were the rule back in the day.   Try 11.2 gr of accurate 7 with a 115gr  Zero 1.185.    My old 38sc load was 10.3/10.5gr with 124gr Zero.  Once you get to 175pf the gun tames down.   Check the accuracy of the 115gr, some barrels just don't perform well with them.  (50 yard groups).

[DWS]

On 1/16/2018 at 1:23 PM, CocoBolo said:

Old school likes lots of powder,  N105 and Accurate 7 were the rule back in the day.   Try 11.2 gr of accurate 7 with a 115gr  Zero 1.185.    My old 38sc load was 10.3/10.5gr with 124gr Zero.  Once you get to 175pf the gun tames down.   Check the accuracy of the 115gr, some barrels just don't perform well with them.  (50 yard groups).

 

Ron, thank you for the post and I will give some of the 115 gr and compare to the 124/125 gr