teros135 Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 1 minute ago, matteekay said: I don't think No Shoots were mentioned anywhere in the thread. I was only ever discussing hard cover hits. Agreed that the OP was about hard cover, and we've pretty much resolved that. No shoots were mentioned later, when 9.4.5.2 was brought up, and that's what I was responding to. 44 minutes ago, matteekay said: Note that hits on hard cover and/or no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits I'm wondering if anybody feels that no-shoot hits can be nullified, under the wording of 9.4.5.2, or whether it means that you can't penalize a NS hit twice in VC, as a NS and as an Extra Hit. I can get behind the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted November 17, 2017 Author Share Posted November 17, 2017 Oh wow, I totally missed that No Shoots are in the ruling, lol. Talk about tunnel vision... I HAVE to think it's the latter, and the rule simply means you don't get the NS and an Extra Hit. You would get the NS penalty, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Fooey. Thought I had a grand new strategy for classifiers there. "Well, it SAYS in 9.5.4.2 ..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Okay - so for plain targets and hard cover, make them up (if you're quick). No-shoots, never mind. Is that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 A no shoot is still penalized as a no shoot, it just isn't also penalized as an extra hit. Teros, your math on the previous page I believe is still talking about just hitting hard cover, not a no shoot, so the -20 should actually be -10. And whether to make up a miss into hard cover, the berm, or a no shoot is the same. If you make it up with an A you get +5 for A and -10 for extra shot. If you don't make it up you get -10 for miss, so you stand to gain 5 points and can decide if you can do it fast enough for it to be worth it. If the miss is into a no shoot you get an extra -10 that you can't do anything about whether you make up the miss or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted November 17, 2017 Author Share Posted November 17, 2017 Right on. To be fair, you're only going to notice the Mike in close-range classifiers, so the chance of making up an A quickly is pretty good. Of course, the better solution is still to shoot all Alphas... so I guess just do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Southpaw said: A no shoot is still penalized as a no shoot, it just isn't also penalized as an extra hit. Teros, your math on the previous page I believe is still talking about just hitting hard cover, not a no shoot, so the -20 should actually be -10. And whether to make up a miss into hard cover, the berm, or a no shoot is the same. If you make it up with an A you get +5 for A and -10 for extra shot. If you don't make it up you get -10 for miss, so you stand to gain 5 points and can decide if you can do it fast enough for it to be worth it. If the miss is into a no shoot you get an extra -10 that you can't do anything about whether you make up the miss or not. Yes. The NS is penalized once, as a NS, but not again as an extra hit. The shot that made up for the NS is penalized as an extra shot, but not as an extra hit. This is complicated, but simple. You can make 'em all up, but do it quickly. Edited November 17, 2017 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, teros135 said: The hard cover M is penalized. looks like this already got straightened out. The rulebook is pretty clear that hardcover hits are NOT penalized. Edited November 17, 2017 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Just now, motosapiens said: no, it isn't. the rulebook very specifically says hits in hardcover cannot be counted as extra hits. You're right, Moto, but we caught that one a while ago. See the most recent posts - I've got it now (I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Just now, teros135 said: You're right, Moto, but we caught that one a while ago. See the most recent posts - I've got it now (I think). Yep, I was impatient and didn't read the rest of the thread before posting. Group hug and beers for everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 1 minute ago, motosapiens said: Yep, I was impatient and didn't read the rest of the thread before posting. Group hug and beers for everyone! It's been quite a bit of a thread. Beer sounds like a good idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 48 minutes ago, teros135 said: It's been quite a bit of a thread. Beer sounds like a good idea! I'm drinking my very last beer from last year's brew season. (I stop sometime in the spring when temps get too warm to easily control fermentation with my current equipment, and also when travel for matches heats up). Fortunately I already have a new hefeweizen available that I brewed a couple weeks ago, and an India Red Ale I just bottled. Brewing new england ipa tomorrow, after we go to the range and practice (since it's going to be a very nice day here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Just now, motosapiens said: I'm drinking my very last beer from last year's brew season. (I stop sometime in the spring when temps get too warm to easily control fermentation with my current equipment, and also when travel for matches heats up). Fortunately I already have a new hefeweizen available that I brewed a couple weeks ago, and an India Red Ale I just bottled. Brewing new england ipa tomorrow, after we go to the range and practice (since it's going to be a very nice day here). A man of many talents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Just now, teros135 said: A man of many talents! sadly, shooting is not one of them yet, but I have a laundry list of things to work on in between brewing this winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 (edited) Didn't they change the rule on stacking that would penalize you for making up the shot on the next string? If it was 2 per during the string and you put 3 on the target on the 2nd string to make up for a miss on the first you also get a procedural for stacking? I swear they changed it last year Edit: Crazy thing. I looked at the rulings on the uspsa site and it was listed. https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=73 Edited November 18, 2017 by Kraj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted November 18, 2017 Author Share Posted November 18, 2017 I don't think that applies to any of the situations discussed here: "9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing) will incur one procedural penalty per target incorrectly engaged in the string or stage. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casarez Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Glad it got cleared up, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mont1120 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 On 11/16/2017 at 3:31 PM, sfinney said: Almost never pays off to take a make up shot on Virginia count. It can, but you have to very lucky and very good. And almost instantaneous on the make up. And not miss again, or shoot a no shoot, or..... Yeah, just take the mike. I have tried making up a shot when I knew full well I missed and hit hard cover. I am pretty sure at that exact moment the re-shoot Gods were bored, saw me trying to be edgy, and pushed my next shot right over the target.......... Lessons learned............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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