Why does WSF recoil less than power pistol at the same velocity?

[Denny4]

I shoot IDPA and switched to WSF powder years ago from Power Pistol. How can I logically explain to friends why WSF shoots softer with less muzzle rise than Power Pistol? 9mm 147gr 875fps. XDm 5.25.   Thanks!    Denny

[wgj3]

It doesn't actually recoil less(by much anyway). It recoils "different". The "equal but opposite reaction" from accelerating the projectile to a given velocity occurs at a different rate between the powders. I believe that someone who is better than me with physics could explain it as differing rates of acceleration that translates to different perceived recoil levels.

 

And, you might find that going to WST results in even "less" felt/perceived recoil...

Edited November 7, 2017 by wgj3

[Denny4]

Thanks for the reply wgj3! I tried to google an explanation of why some powders recoil less than others and found that a lot of shooters disagree with me. They think that if the projectile weight and velocity is the same then the felt recoil will be the same. I agree that the recoil may be the same, just different and would just like to know why. To me the difference in felt recoil is a big deal and my scores reflect this in a positive way. Thanks for the tip about WST.  Denny

 

[Joe4d]

at normal pressures I would think you would find WSF is a bit faster burning than power pistol,, but its close and burn rates can change based on pressure. 
In general in non comped pistols faster burning powders recoil less. Faster burning powders tend to use less, So you have the weight of the powder in the recoil formula.
Also as the bullet leaves the barrel slower powders are still burning, and IMO are producing a rear JET power that adds to the recoil.
For instance. Take a factory 357 magnum 125 gr load and shoot it in a 20 oz J frame 2" revolver.  KABOOM!  the things kill on one end, maim on the other.
Now shoot a ruger LC9s,,  124 gr bullet WWB,,  Same weight bullet, same velocity from that gun,,,  LC9 goes pop pop pop.
Could reduce it even more using faster powder than typical factory loads.
My 9mm  124gr FMJ at 1090 FPS ammo with tightgroup , recoils noticeably less than Winchester WB 115 gr ammo and near identical velocity verified with my chrono.
So,, IMO cant prove exactly why, but direct observation tells me powder had a large influence on recoil.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Joe4d

[Joe4d]

oh but BTW as to your original post... I wouldnt be using either of those powders in your gun,  Too slow.. Try some Tightgroup for jacketed  or Sport pistol for coated.

[superdude]

A look at the Lyman load manual shows that WSF requires less weight than PP to propel the same bullet to the same speed.

 

That would explain why it produces less recoil. When you compare two gunpowders that push the same bullet to the same speed, the one that requires more gunpowder produces more recoil. The weight of the gunpowder contributes to the recoil force via the law of conservation of mass, which is explained here:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas

 

The formula to calculate recoil force requires the weight of the gunpowder since it contributes to the ejecta. http://kwk.us/recoil.html

 

The difference is real and can be demonstrated empirically, as shown here: https://books.google.com/books?id=YVOYCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA238&lpg=PA238&dq=gunpowder+and+recoil+brad+miller+gun+digest&source=bl&ots=PwqLRxuaJU&sig=ZH536LOx57BALqsgQwokJK_UznY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwip2PLh-qvXAhXs5IMKHZACC0EQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=gunpowder and recoil brad miller gun digest&f=false

[Hammer002]

WSF is an amazing 9mm powder and I even came to like some .40 with it.  It pairs perfectly with 135s though in 9mm.  I switched from the 147s last season at the advice of my bullet provider and haven't looked back.  The 147s are nice shooting, but the 135s have a little less felt recoil and quicker sight return.  I load with Clays for steel challenge light loads, and like the WSF, cause it "feels" much the same as a clays load even at higher velocity to meet power factor.

[Denny4]

Thanks for the info guys. I have about 1k of WSF rounds left so it is time to work up some tightgroup and WST loads.  Den

[GBertolet]

Another thing to consider. The jet action of the escaping gasses at the muzzle, contribute to a portion of the recoil. Light charge weights of fast burning powders will have a much lower pressure at the muzzle, as combustion is mostly complete, vs  charges of slower burning powders that are still burning yet at the muzzle. That's why powders such as Clays, Titegroup, WST, etc, will recoil somewhat less than the slower burning powders, loaded to the same PF. The difference isn't huge, but it is there.

Edited November 7, 2017 by GBertolet

[bowenbuilt]

It usually works like this:

The more propellant you put in the case the more perceived recoil you get. A slower burning powder, which generally takes more propellant to achieve the  power factor, gives more blast and perceived recoil. This is not a rule that is chiseled into stone but is generally the case, just to make things simple.

[4n2t0]

18 hours ago, Joe4d said:

oh but BTW as to your original post... I wouldnt be using either of those powders in your gun,  Too slow.. Try some Tightgroup for jacketed  or Sport pistol for coated.

 

WSF is too slow for what? It's great in 9mm.

Edited November 8, 2017 by 4n2t0

[Joe4d]

Maybe if you are trying to load full power or plus p ammo, but not for 125 pf game loads in a non compensated pistol.  Faster powders will work much better,,, WSF is getting down there in magnum or comped pistol burn rates. Wouldnt be my choice at all for action sports.  Maybe for Pin loads depending on caliber.

[4n2t0]

3 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Maybe if you are trying to load full power or plus p ammo, but not for 125 pf game loads in a non compensated pistol.  Faster powders will work much better,,, WSF is getting down there in magnum or comped pistol burn rates. Wouldnt be my choice at all for action sports.  Maybe for Pin loads depending on caliber.

 

I use WSF for 130 PF 9mm minor and it's perfectly fine. Why do faster powders work "much better"? You may prefer the feel of fast powder but to say they work "much better" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by 4n2t0

[Joe4d]

less powder per load, less recoil  , less muzzle blast, less noise ,less money, 
Sorry you dont understand.   
Just trying to help folks out and have them save some money and not repeat old mistakes all of us have made.
Limited/production guns.. fast powder,,, 
Open guns, slow powder.
Only been comparing notes on this page for 15 years. VAst majority of experienced forum members would agree with me. Enjoy your WSF,, glad you like it.
Will teach you anythign you want to know that I know about.
Wont argue though.
Good day
 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Joe4d

[bigedp51]

18 hours ago, bowenbuilt said:

It usually works like this:

The more propellant you put in the case the more perceived recoil you get. A slower burning powder, which generally takes more propellant to achieve the  power factor, gives more blast and perceived recoil. This is not a rule that is chiseled into stone but is generally the case, just to make things simple.

 

My son sold me his S&W model 29-5 44 magnum with a five inch barrel. My son does not reload and I got the impression he didn't like the recoil from "factory ammunition".

I have Quickload and you can see where 100% of the power will be burnt in the barrel. I loaded some practice ammunition with Titegroup that had all the powder burned in less than 3 inches. My son came home and shot my loads and wanted to buy the 44 magnum back. I told him to buy a reloading press and we might talk about it.

 

What is funny if you use a maximum load of 296 Quickload will not even show 100% burned in a 44 magnum rifle.

 

So a soft load has burned all the powder before the bullet leaves the barrel and lower chamber pressure on bullet exit. Meaning no additional added rocket thrust from excess fuel.

[blackhand]

WSF if the main powder I use for 9mm. The recoil impulse is spread over a longer time, so the recoil feels softer to me than the shorter snap of rounds loaded with faster powders like VV N320.

 

Rounds loaded with WSF also shoot very accurately in my guns. However, I will note that WSF is fairly dirty. Spent cases are very sooty, which indicates I'm not getting full powder burn. There's not much smoke produced with WSF with coated bullets, just the dirty cases. 

 

It may not be the ideal powder to use for 9mm, but it's accurate, cheap, and relatively cool burning.

[4n2t0]

3 hours ago, Joe4d said:

less powder per load, less recoil  , less muzzle blast, less noise ,less money, 
Sorry you dont understand.   
Just trying to help folks out and have them save some money and not repeat old mistakes all of us have made.
Limited/production guns.. fast powder,,, 
Open guns, slow powder.
Only been comparing notes on this page for 15 years. VAst majority of experienced forum members would agree with me. Enjoy your WSF,, glad you like it.
Will teach you anythign you want to know that I know about.
Wont argue though.
Good day
 

 

Bahahaha, you're special.

 

Cheers!

Edited November 8, 2017 by 4n2t0

[Hammer002]

delete

 

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Hammer002

[MemphisMechanic]

20 hours ago, 4n2t0 said:

 

I use WSF for 130 PF 9mm minor and it's perfectly fine. Why do faster powders work "much better"? You may prefer the feel of fast powder but to say they work "much better" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 

 

Because the felt recoil of a faster burning powder is lighter. Slower burning powder = a gun which has more muzzle rise (flip) and what feels like more recoil at the same power factor.

 

Every once in a while we get a newbie coming along who insists this isn’t the case, but light recoil spring + heavy bullet + fast-burn powder actually is the ticket to a flat & soft shooting gun.

 

It seems counterintuitive, but it’s very much the case.

[Paul4895]

MemphisMechanic, you are right about spring , heavy bullet, and fast burn powder. But, I have expiermented with that combo of fast powder with 125 and 147 projectiles but didn't like the snappy feel. 

 

I'm in the WSF camp.  I found WSF is perfect for me in 9mm.  It has a push feel that i like, and I agree with Blackhand that a WSF load is very accurate.  

 

I believe it's all subjective, so use what you feel confortable with

 

[4n2t0]

On 09/11/2017 at 4:02 PM, Paul4895 said:

MemphisMechanic, you are right about spring , heavy bullet, and fast burn powder. But, I have expiermented with that combo of fast powder with 125 and 147 projectiles but didn't like the snappy feel. 

 

I'm in the WSF camp.  I found WSF is perfect for me in 9mm.  It has a push feel that i like, and I agree with Blackhand that a WSF load is very accurate.  

 

I believe it's all subjective, so use what you feel confortable with

 

 

This, exactly.

Edited November 11, 2017 by 4n2t0

[4n2t0]

On 09/11/2017 at 6:02 AM, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Because the felt recoil of a faster burning powder is lighter. Slower burning powder = a gun which has more muzzle rise (flip) and what feels like more recoil at the same power factor.

 

Every once in a while we get a newbie coming along who insists this isn’t the case, but light recoil spring + heavy bullet + fast-burn powder actually is the ticket to a flat & soft shooting gun.

 

It seems counterintuitive, but it’s very much the case.

 

I guess these comments were direct at me? You seem to think that the fast powder + heavy bullet thing, which is repeated ad nauseam, is a new concept for me. I know that combination works (I fired 400 rounds of a Titegroup/147gr load yesterday) but so do a lot of other powders (even slow ones). I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't distinguish the difference between Titegroup and WSF in 9mm at 130 PF if I loaded a mixed magazine. Remember, it was stated that faster powders work "better" which still sounds ridiculous considering just how subjective "better" can be in this case. Different strokes for different folks.

 

P.S. I'm new to this forum, not to reloading.

 

Cheers!

Edited November 11, 2017 by 4n2t0

[gmantwo]

I personally cannot distinguish a difference in loads of the same PF. That’s one reason I shoot 115gr in 9 minor. That and the fact that I’m cheap and I get more “bangs” for my buck. 

I am looking for a cleaner powder than Titegroup though. Love the way it loads & shoots, but during a match I need to clean the guys at about 250 rounds or it’s not reliable. 

Suggestions? 

[cowboy85306]

Alas, though Titegroup is right there with Bullseye on the relative burn charts I have, and Bullseye remains one of my least favorite powders due to the fact of it being ( for me, I know SOMEONE will chime in to contest this )  downright filthy to clean up after,  in either semi auto or revolver.  Titegroup is a bit cleaner, and really decent behind jacketed or coated bullets.  I have some experience with  Accurate #2, which is a faster powder, and gave me good results in .38 special ( with little charges of powder in a case that really wants to be charged with something bulky- TrailBoss, maybe though that doesn't meter worth beans through my powder measure , and have no clue how it does in 9mm ) Just tossing this out there- RAMSHOT True Blue is likely worth a look. Seems to have wide application, from their data ( available free on line ).

  Just as a point of interest, YES, I too use WSF as my go-to powder for 9mm. It works my guns well, and I like it. I do not use it for anything resembling a low end magnum load. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that a big number of posts on any particular forum makes anyone an expert at anything, aside from maybe keyboarding.  I don't make forums my life's work, have been into ( single stage press)  hand loading and ( progressive press) reloading since the mid 1980's, have never made a firearm into scrap with a kaboom load. Not claiming to be a ballistics expert, just saying .

Edited May 13, 2018 by cowboy85306

[Peebles24]

I use wsf with 115gr plated bullets for my 9mm. It is relatively soft shooting and cheap to load. I do find it to be a bit dirty as others have said. I have never ran any other load besides factory ammo in my 9s, so i am far from a expert, just got lucky the first cheap powder load i tried worked very well in my guns and found no reson to try something else.