MD's: A reasoned plea AGAINST 1/2 day format matches

[ericm]

My match example above (way above, now....) could be hybrid-ized quite easily.

 

1/2 day format for the first day (5 stages back to back) and then one on-one off for the next day until finish @ 1:30 PM.

 

I suppose 1/2 of the shooters could do 1/2 day format while the other 1/2 of shooters do whole day - one on-off, but that would be some interesting scheduling....

 

.....probably could be worked out with enough thought......similar to me attempting a poll 

 

ericm

 

 

[Nik Habicht]

It's be pretty easy to schedule......

 

1/2 day squads shoot 1-4 in the morning and the second relay shoots 5-8 in the afternoon

Full day Saturday squads start on 5-8, shoot 1-4 after lunch 

 

Sunday Saturday's second relay comes back on 1-4, and the first relay comes back in the afternoon for 5-8

 

Sunday one day shooters do the same thing that Saturday's did on Saturday.....

 

It's been done for pistol matches; should be adaptable to 3 gun....

[ericm]

Nope. You've got the full day squads still shooting stages back to back with no break except at lunch and then back to back after lunch. AND...It would be a one day match for the full day shooters, that disconnect factor again....Saturday's full day folks would still have to come back Sunday evening for awards and prize table.

 

And again, talking about 3 gun here, 3 times the gear, reconfigure between stages, to have any rest and refit at all would again require you to walk away from your squad. As the British Sailors used to say: " one hand for the ship, one hand for you."

 

ericm

[ericm]

I suppose if you actually wanted minimal time spent at 3 gun matches, eliminating most travel and expenses, and giving all shooters as much "down time" as possible, you could organize and administer what they used to call postal matches.

Match director would send out detailed drawings of the stages, you would replicate those stages at your local club, shoot them for score, send those scores to the match director who would tally the results and declare the winners. I wonder how many sponsors would be in on something like this??? After all, we live in a digital world now....

 

ericm

Edited November 4, 2017 by ericm

[Flatland Shooter]

I'd participate in Postal Matches if made available.  It would work better for USPSA matches since they are already designed around a bay.  Will work for 3 gun but it does away with terrain stages or jungle runs.

[StealthyBlagga]

As an MD, I think one good "hybrid" option would be  full-day/one-on-one-off on the first day of the match, switching to half day/back-to-back on subsequent days. This would address my biggest concern, which is my ability to handle slow stages while preventing squads from backing up. If I am doing my job properly, any slow stages will be running on schedule by the end of the first day and thus should not cause problems on subsequent days.

[ericm]

Another "hybrid" option: Let those who absolutely cannot or do not wish to attend the full match shoot the entire match on say Wednesday and Thursday (or just Thursday if the match allows) with the RO's and then have what I consider and have considered historically the main match be a regular full day one on - one off format for Friday - Sunday (probably ending around 1 PM Sunday). I believe SMM3G has used this type of scheduling to allow for a huge match, giving vendors and sponsors and others the chance to shoot the match at the same time as the RO's when the main match is full.

 

My attempt at a "reductio ad absurdum" argument bringing up the postal match format was apparently embraced by at least one person.

 

....keep it going....

 

ericm

[Flatland Shooter]

What can I say.  Let's feed the Troll.

 

Let's not  .........  keep it going.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Flatland Shooter

[PacMan]

Okay I'll add my 0.02 worth.

 

For multi days 3 gun match with short 2 guns stages I can see the 1/2 days format would work well since competitors wouldn't have as much gear to prep.  Yes, this type of stage design can be boring for competitors in 1-on/ 1-off format (let's not call it Full Day anymore so that people don't get confused).

 

For match with all 3 guns (plus sling) in most of the stages, the 1/2 days format is just nuts IMO.  We rushed from one to another while shuffling gears.  I know, some will say just leave all your gears on.  That's fine for some but belt real estate is limited so when you need to carry 18 rds of shotshells, 2 rifle mags, and 2 or 3 pistol mags depending on which one get the start, I usually find best to lose the extra pouches or holster whenever I could.  The way to be prepared is to load up 2 - 3 sets of mags but that's only a partial solution.  One would run out of time after the 2nd stage of the day, unless you volunteer to be in 'Trooper Class', carrying all your gears/ammo in all the stages. 

 

Perhaps what magnified the 'rush' some of us are feeling in 1/2 day format matches is the direction in which most 3 gun matches are heading, more 3 guns stages and longer shotgun stages.

 

In summary, the 1/2 day format is fine if the stage designs and layout are managed in such a way to minimize gear change out.  For match with gonzo stages, 1-on/1-off format is much better IMO.

 

 

[1chota]

I have been at 1/2 day format matches that the MD changed the second day format and insisted that ALL squads finish the match on the second day instead of the third. 

Not very much fun.

[ericm]

Let's try attaching this .pdf.

This is an example of scheduling an 8 stage two day three gun match, one on / one off format. Note how the match is finished at 1:30 PM on Sunday. 1/2 of the match has an "early" start of 7:00 AM on one day and a "late" start of  8:00 AM on one day.

MD's: this is easy to do in excel or other spreadsheet and you can play around with scheduling all you want.

 

ericm

8 STAGE FD FORMAT.pdf

[bluedevil008]

On 11/2/2017 at 12:55 PM, wtturn said:

This is literally the only time I've ever seen anyone criticize or complain about the half day format.

Half day is vastly superior to any other format for the average section match (9-12 stages).

Why would I want to spend sunup to sundown on the range of I don't have to? Full day means you're worn out for your last few stages. Half day means you're able to get in your groove and stay fresh for all stages.

Half day means I can avoid a night in a hotel.

Half day means you can watch other notable guys shoot the stages before or after your relay.

Half day is enlightenment.

 

I, too am a big fan of half-day format.  On-off is a lot of wasteful time.  BUT Fort Benning is an example of how full-day on-off can work well.  Squads started at 0730 and 0830 and the vast majority of everyone was done shooting by 2pm each day.  Now, granted I don't think this is doable at most matches because Fort Benning had lots of voluntolds helping reset, so 11 person squads could blow through a stage in 45-50 minutes, mostly unheard for a 3-gun match.

 

[ericm]

I believe your statement actually supports the 1 on / 1 off argument more than it supports the half day argument.

You attribute Ft. Benning's success to  " lots of voluntolds helping reset...".

If Ft. Benning DID NOT have the help resetting that you mention, how much time would it take an 11 man squad to shoot a stage with everyone on the squad working? I'm guessing just over an hour.

Do you want to shoot your 4 stages per day back to back with no break and no time to reconfigure gear, get ammo or a drink from the car??? (and I mean, the MOMENT your squad is done with a stage, the next stage is calling everyone for the stage briefing & walkthrough while they finish shooting the last couple of shooters from the previous squad - TIME IS TIGHT! GO GO GO!)

Or, do you want to shoot your 4 stages using 1 on / 1 off and still be finished around the 2:30 - 3:30 mark, and have time between stages to reconfigure, etc.

I know what I would choose.

 

ericm

 

[10X]

If I'm traveling (which I don't much do anymore) I'm fine with full-day matches.   If it is local, I very much prefer half-day matches, because I've always got something or other I need to do at home, and I hate to be gone a full day, when so very little time is spent actually shooting.

[Gabes]

my only experience with full day matches is at Superstition Mountain Mystery 3 gun held at Rio Salado in Arizona.  I shoot with the same squad of dudes and we're all dialed in when it comes to resetting a stage.  Our entire squad will finish a stage (depending on the stage of course) in about 30-45 minutes.  Then, we all park our asses in chairs for almost 2 hours before our next stage.  It's bullshit!  I'd rather be done by noon and go to the bar!  The MD needs to understand that, at least this match, is an opportunity to see old friends and actually spend time together. 

[JOThompson]

I rarely have a full-day to spend in a match anymore, to the point where I just don't go unless I can be done in 3-4 hours. This limits me to action pistol and more informal black-rifle type matches (which are still great because I'm a beginner), but I do think that half-day competitions help more casual folks get into competitive shooting. 

[sargenv]

Speaking as an MD for both Multigun and Single gun matches.. I've tried a few variants over the years.. I've never tried the one on-one off style and it seems that it would create more problems with what others have said.. too many people on the range, parking headaches, needing to keep 2x as many people fed, hydrated, and if it's hot, under tents or some sort of shade structure.

 

Multi-day matches where you might shoot 4-6 stages in two half days or a 4-4-2 format over three days seem to work out best. I'm helping coordinate a match that will have a hybrid format.. 4 stages on Friday with AM/PM squads, 4 stages on Sat with AM/PM squads and 2 stages on Sunday doing the 1 on, 1 off format. We figured it was okay to do the one on, one off process on Sunday since everyone is likely to be at the range anyway for side matches and visiting the vendors in between the last two stages. The RM wants a 65 minute per stage time (squads of 12) and with the limited amount of time we could be on the range (Hard 8 am start, hard 5 pm quit), there was no way we were going to get more than 2 - 4 stage relays in within the required time period. We have about a 20 minute window to allow for broken props and stage backup issues. Time will tell if the 65 minute turn around time is adequate or whether we will get the capacity needed to hold the match.

 

For last year's Golden Bullet Sectional I experimented with small squads and the shooters did not have to reset at all.. just show up, shoot, and scoot. I ran 5-7 person squads in 9 - 30 minute relays (Chrono was it's own stage) and competitors were done with the whole match in 4.5 hours. It was also sort of a hybrid in that I asked for Volunteers to shoot the 8 stages plus chrono on Thurs afternoon. I had 4 staggered 10 person squads shooting 8 stages in an afternoon (1p-finished), Friday and Saturday I had AM and PM relays of 4.5 hours each with a lunch 1/2 hour. Sunday had one final relay that was done by noon. If that format is done again, I will insist that the shooters reset.. I had 3-5 staff on each stage to do reset.. with the 6-7 competitors, there should be no issue having them do reset also (shooter, on deck, and the competitor who just shot are the three who need not immediately reset). We got 343 competitors through in basically 3 1/2 days..  I did not have any time restrictions at my range, we could have shot in the dark if we wanted to (Several bays have flood lights installed). It was a marathon and I and several staff members stayed on the range in our RV's. Many competitors liked the format since they could shoot the entire match and either go home or enjoy a weekend with family in the area. I also felt that since all the competitors had to do was shoot and scoot, that the competition level was actually higher. It wasn't the same as being on the range for 9 hours or more, having to wait large gaps between shooting stages and they were still fairly fresh on the latter stages as they were on the first few.

 

My single long gun format matches tend to be one day with up to 7 stages.. usually with 12-15 person squads and dedicated RO's. While those tend to be hard on the shooters, it just makes sense to make them single day matches so that if the competitor wishes, they can shoot the whole thing in a day and not have to stay in a hotel and they can designate a representative to pick up any prizes or awards. I usually have a Staff/overflow day on Sat and a general match day on Sunday with awards to follow. The Staff/overflow day can be a bit longer since we usually will iron out any stage issues. Bottlenecks and stage time sinks are not usually an issue since we try to iron out those issues during the build and design process. The Sunday general match usually goes a bit faster since we've sort of figured out the issues on Sat (unless we break props).

 

Please pick apart or comment all you like. This has been an informative thread. I'm sure I'm missing something here 

[RangerTrace]

On 11/2/2017 at 2:55 PM, wtturn said:

This is literally the only time I've ever seen anyone criticize or complain about the half day format.

Half day is vastly superior to any other format for the average section match (9-12 stages).

Why would I want to spend sunup to sundown on the range of I don't have to? Full day means you're worn out for your last few stages. Half day means you're able to get in your groove and stay fresh for all stages.

Half day means I can avoid a night in a hotel.

Half day means you can watch other notable guys shoot the stages before or after your relay.

Half day is enlightenment.

^^^^^^I agree

[bluedevil008]

On 11/30/2017 at 7:57 AM, ericm said:

I believe your statement actually supports the 1 on / 1 off argument more than it supports the half day argument.

You attribute Ft. Benning's success to  " lots of voluntolds helping reset...".

If Ft. Benning DID NOT have the help resetting that you mention, how much time would it take an 11 man squad to shoot a stage with everyone on the squad working? I'm guessing just over an hour.

Do you want to shoot your 4 stages per day back to back with no break and no time to reconfigure gear, get ammo or a drink from the car??? (and I mean, the MOMENT your squad is done with a stage, the next stage is calling everyone for the stage briefing & walkthrough while they finish shooting the last couple of shooters from the previous squad - TIME IS TIGHT! GO GO GO!)

Or, do you want to shoot your 4 stages using 1 on / 1 off and still be finished around the 2:30 - 3:30 mark, and have time between stages to reconfigure, etc.

I know what I would choose.

 

ericm

 

No, the fact that competitor resetting was minimal made a significant impact on whether on-off works well.  All other on-off matches I have shot take significantly longer.  For squads that size, 90 minutes is a more accurate estimate of time it would take for a squad to move through.  Conservatively let's add 30 minutes to each squad, and they ran 8 squads each day at each bay.... that's FOUR more hours.  So now people finish shooting as they sun is setting or already set, which is what I've experience at other matches. 

 

As for rushing to get ready during an AM/Pm schedule... yes, sometimes there is a little bit of that.  But at most matches, I'd be pissed if I was stuck on the range the entire day.  Take Multigun Nationals for example, part of why I love that much so much is that there is lots of time to go do activities around town, including one or two nights where your squad doesn't start until the afternoon so there is plenty of time to go out to the casinos or a good meal.  Ending at 5-6pm and starting at 7-8 does NOT allow for that.   So unless you can guarantee squads are finishing up at 2pm with an on-off schedule (which I doubt is possible without resetting help), I'd prefer AM/Pm.

Edited January 25, 2018 by bluedevil008

[toothandnail]

On 1/25/2018 at 11:17 AM, bluedevil008 said:

No, the fact that competitor resetting was minimal made a significant impact on whether on-off works well.  All other on-off matches I have shot take significantly longer.  For squads that size, 90 minutes is a more accurate estimate of time it would take for a squad to move through.  Conservatively let's add 30 minutes to each squad, and they ran 8 squads each day at each bay.... that's FOUR more hours.  So now people finish shooting as they sun is setting or already set, which is what I've experience at other matches. 

 

As for rushing to get ready during an AM/Pm schedule... yes, sometimes there is a little bit of that.  But at most matches, I'd be pissed if I was stuck on the range the entire day.  Take Multigun Nationals for example, part of why I love that much so much is that there is lots of time to go do activities around town, including one or two nights where your squad doesn't start until the afternoon so there is plenty of time to go out to the casinos or a good meal.  Ending at 5-6pm and starting at 7-8 does NOT allow for that.   So unless you can guarantee squads are finishing up at 2pm with an on-off schedule (which I doubt is possible without resetting help), I'd prefer AM/Pm.

At MO3GC we run 14-15 man squads, 75 min time per stage, have a 30 min lunch break, (if any are behind they shoot through lunch) very seldom run behind. Usually finish between 4-5:30

A couple of KEY things that many matches fail at

START ON TIME !

Stage times must be fairly close in total time. A 120 avg time and a 40 avg time will screw everybody.

Keep walk through at the 5 min. regardless. Use a countdown timer with alarm. it's so easy to burn an extra 5-10 per squad jacking around before/after stage brief.

We run a 2 day, 10 stage , ~180 shooters, and do prize table about 3-4pm on 2nd day.

Our biggest holdup has been RO's entering scores on the wrong stage. That was actually our fault as RM/MD we missed it , until tallying the finals and everything was jacked.

Edited February 7, 2018 by toothandnail

[bluedevil008]

4 hours ago, toothandnail said:

At MO3GC we run 14-15 man squads, 75 min time per stage, have a 30 min lunch break, (if any are behind they shoot through lunch) very seldom run behind. Usually finish between 4-5:30

A couple of KEY things that many matches fail at

START ON TIME !

Stage times must be fairly close in total time. A 120 avg time and a 40 avg time will screw everybody.

Keep walk through at the 5 min. regardless. Use a countdown timer with alarm. it's so easy to burn an extra 5-10 per squad jacking around before/after stage brief.

We run a 2 day, 10 stage , ~180 shooters, and do prize table about 3-4pm on 2nd day.

Our biggest holdup has been RO's entering scores on the wrong stage. That was actually our fault as RM/MD we missed it , until tallying the finals and everything was jacked.

 

The MO3GC is the only other example I use of a well-ran On-Off schedule.  You guys do a great job of keeping things on schedule.  Additionally, the other reason I advocate for it in YOUR case specifically, is that there is unfortunately nothing to do off the range.  The drive to decent meals is a bit far, and there are no attractions, so even if we were doing AM/PM, I would probably be at the range the whole day anyway. 

[toothandnail]

4 hours ago, bluedevil008 said:

 

The MO3GC is the only other example I use of a well-ran On-Off schedule.  You guys do a great job of keeping things on schedule.  Additionally, the other reason I advocate for it in YOUR case specifically, is that there is unfortunately nothing to do off the range.  The drive to decent meals is a bit far, and there are no attractions, so even if we were doing AM/PM, I would probably be at the range the whole day anyway. 

Hey Hey now, 

there's a Walmart about 6 miles from the range . . . . . what more can a guy ask for ? ? ?

LOL

[toothandnail]

On 11/4/2017 at 9:09 PM, ericm said:

Another "hybrid" option: Let those who absolutely cannot or do not wish to attend the full match shoot the entire match on say Wednesday and Thursday (or just Thursday if the match allows) with the RO's and then have what I consider and have considered historically the main match be a regular full day one on - one off format for Friday - Sunday (probably ending around 1 PM Sunday). I believe SMM3G has used this type of scheduling to allow for a huge match, giving vendors and sponsors and others the chance to shoot the match at the same time as the RO's when the main match is full.

 

My attempt at a "reductio ad absurdum" argument bringing up the postal match format was apparently embraced by at least one person.

 

....keep it going....

 

ericm

We offer this option. Maybe 2-3 people shoot the alternate option.

[bluedevil008]

6 hours ago, toothandnail said:

Hey Hey now, 

there's a Walmart about 6 miles from the range . . . . . what more can a guy ask for ? ? ?

LOL

 

Walmart IS great people watching... haha

[ericm]

CONFIRMED!!!

 

After shooting the 2018 SMM3G match which featured the first day as a one-on one-off format and then the 2 following days as 1/2 day format (stages back to back), I have NO REASON to change anything I have stated in this thread.

 

1/2 day format at major 3 gun matches SUCKS!!!

 

ericm