Wife approved an XL 650 !

[Covfefe]

18 hours ago, 858 said:

 

I shot a match yesterday with someone who was running ammo he produced on a 650 he just bought as his first press. He had high primer, long load, AND squib load failures, all from the same loading in a single match. While you are correct about the infinite amount of information sources, new reloaders get to learn the fundamentals of hand loading while trying to sort out the intricacies of one of the most complex presses on the market. I have no doubt someone can learn to hand load on a 650 but the learning curve is significantly steeper.

 

No sense in belaboring the point, OP is going to buy a 650. My advice is to find a cheap second press to work out the load development while he gets up to speed on the fundamentals. A single stage press is also helpful for troubleshooting ammo down the road (primer seating, case mouth expansion, crimp, etc). The chronograph is a major part of that equation too. 

 

I do appreciate your words of wisdom / caution. 

 

Can you elaborate a bit on why a progressive may have contributed to that shooters errors? 

 

I’d think that a progressive is actually safer because it reduces the risk of a missed load or double load, no? I will probably get a powder checker FWIW.

[858]

1 hour ago, Covfefe said:

 

I do appreciate your words of wisdom / caution. 

 

Can you elaborate a bit on why a progressive may have contributed to that shooters errors? 

 

I’d think that a progressive is actually safer because it reduces the risk of a missed load or double load, no? I will probably get a powder checker FWIW.

 

In his case he did not have a set of processes for checking loaded ammo or strict processes for operating the press. He had at least three separate issues; press setup, press operation, and quality control. Controlling loaded ammunition output is the single most critical step because it catches most of the other mistakes. He did not know he should chamber check his loaded ammo. He also didn't know that he should visually verify all of his thrown charges. This is part of the hand loading fundamentals that are easier to learn on less complex presses where you're not contending with so many variables, so quickly, at the same time. 

 

Pistol ammunition is fairly simple compared to rifle ammunition but it still has its challenges. Depending on the components you use, there are some variables that are just outside of your control. Recognizing those variables and understanding how to either eliminate or minimize them from your finished product is important. An example is mixed brass and ununiformed primer pockets, brass thickness, and unserviceability of the fired brass. In a single stage or turret press you have a lot more time to see the variables before they go into your loaded ammo. With a 650, those problems can go through the press before you even know to look for them. You operate the 650 by feel and by visual verification and if you don't know what you're feeling you won't know you have a problem. Again, you can obviously learn on a 650 but you will have some trial and error in front of you. 

 

I'm not trying to talk you out of buying a 650, I have one and I think it is a necessity if you're shooting volumes of pistol ammo. I'm only saying that it is easier to learn and do low volume load development on a single stage or turret press. There are some decent low cost presses on the market that only add about $100 to $200 to your total initial investment. As you grow into reloading you will find a second press highly valuable.

 

Don't waste your time with a powder checker, visually verify every case so you're not relying on a mechanical device that is susceptible to misadjustment or failure. I use a cheap endoscope but you can just as easily look into each case as you're standing/sitting there. Dillon has done a great job designing a auto advancing progressive press that minimizes double charges and zero charges. However, progressive presses are MORE prone to both of those issues, not less. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by 858

[Miranda]

 

The way I like to describe the issue with learning on a progressive press like a 650...

"400 to 800 mistakes in an hour"

and until you know how avoid making mistakes you will have a lot of mistakes to fix.

 

If you have the personal self control to make a batch of about 50 rounds and test your ammo

it is a good press to have.  Once you know your reload recipe a 650 will repeat that load  with ease.

 

I made a number of small mistakes (all the usual stuff) with my first few batches

and gave them a trial.  because of this site's good advice I did avoid making a load without powder.

(the advice was "LOOK in EVERY case for powder.  WiTHOUT FAIL")

... they didn't say what to do when there was no powder however.... :-D

 

so make sure each round has the right amount of powder and you should not need to reach for your bullet puller.

and add a bullet puller to your list of sundries.

 

get the 650. and get another press for odds and ends. the lee cast turret thing is a good choice.

 

miranda

 

 

 

 

 

[MHitchcock]

On 10/29/2017 at 4:03 PM, 858 said:

 

I shot a match yesterday with someone who was running ammo he produced on a 650 he just bought as his first press. He had high primer, long load, AND squib load failures, all from the same loading in a single match. While you are correct about the infinite amount of information sources, new reloaders get to learn the fundamentals of hand loading while trying to sort out the intricacies of one of the most complex presses on the market. I have no doubt someone can learn to hand load on a 650 but the learning curve is significantly steeper.

 

No sense in belaboring the point, OP is going to buy a 650. My advice is to find a cheap second press to work out the load development while he gets up to speed on the fundamentals. A single stage press is also helpful for troubleshooting ammo down the road (primer seating, case mouth expansion, crimp, etc). The chronograph is a major part of that equation too. 

 

I've seen experienced reloaders have squibs. It all comes down to the person and loading practices. And to be honest, there are only 3 ways you could possibly end up with a squib on a 650: letting the powder hopper run dry, partially extending the ram and advancing the shell plate without completing the stroke and then ignoring it, or spraying a bunch of lanolin based lube into the case mouth (easily fixed by running dry with carbide dies or using 1 shot - which works perfectly for pistol). 

 

I started on a 650 and there is more than enough media out there to help you along. I have never had a single squib, double charge, etc. I think that someone of average intelligence can easily learn to load safely with few hiccups on a 650. To say that every reloader should start on a single stage because there are some people who can't deal with starting on a progressive is a gross generalization. In my experience the people that generally have recurring issues are people who have the same exact problems with other facets of their lives: rushing things, ignoring safe practices, etc. These people also tend to think they are infallible. 

[MHitchcock]

5 hours ago, 858 said:

 

However, progressive presses are MORE prone to both of those issues, not less. 

 

I'm curious. How do you double charge a case on a 650 without intentionally taking the case out and putting it back in station 2. 

[858]

1 hour ago, MHitchcock said:

 

I'm curious. How do you double charge a case on a 650 without intentionally taking the case out and putting it back in station 2. 

 

Double stroking a 650 with the new thrower is pretty difficult. Powder bridge, intentionally returning a charged piece of brass, misadjusted thrower, or improper load combination. Squibs are much easier and more likely though. 

[SlvrDragon50]

For me, the biggest issue I had with my progressive was a primer not feeding (powder out the hole) or a primer being fed upside down. However, I don't load more than 100-200 rounds at a time. Really start off slow, even one round at a time, and you'll be just fine with the 650. Youtube Videos are incredibly helpful, and the forum can help with specific questions you may have.

[Brooke]

8 hours ago, MHitchcock said:

 

I'm curious. How do you double charge a case on a 650 without intentionally taking the case out and putting it back in station 2. 

 

That's my question also. Making a squib or double charge on any Dillon press (or most presses) requires a complete misunderstanding of the process or total lack of attention (a subset of misunderstanding).

 

Neither situation is a failure of the mechanics, but instead a failure to understand how the machine works. All such problems are operator error. Some people should not reload because they have no clue.

 

And just to complete the MHitchcock thought: You make a squib by removing the filled case from station 3 (to weigh powder for example) and putting it (empty) back into station 3. This ain't rocket science but not everyone is a rocket scientist either.

[jaques]

I suggest you find some near you that runs a 650, so you can see what all is involved. I have 2 650's with bullet feeders and I have never had a sqib or a double charge in the years I have been reloading. I have never used a powder checker. I did start out on a single stage and that got old very quick! Then I got a couple of 550's. Then I sold one and got my first 650 and I never looked back. My 550 gets as much use as my powder checkers for my 650's. After using a case feeder and bullet feeder I can't imagine going back to doing everything by hand. 

[matt berry]

You can save a couple of bucks by buying an RCBS primer flip tray, they cost around $5.

I would recommend buying either a Hornady or redding seating die, redding also makes one with a micrometer on the top. Either seating die is a huge upgrade to the dillon die.

Powder measure, either buy the plastic knobs that go over the bolt, or one of the replacement handle / bolt combos you can find on ebay or other online places. It will make powder adjustment so much nicer.

[Joe4d]

OMG I am embarrassed by my buddies.
Stop reading, stop loading and take that girl to a broadway show...  Lion king, Wicked, Cats,,, some sheet,,, buy some nice wine and actually pretend you like it !

[Miranda]

... ya kno...

I kinda assumed he did the 'make her happy' thing before the xl650 happened.

 

however, there may be a dark side to this joyful event.

 

why am I thinking about vacuum cleaners and wife visiting partents?

 

miranda

 

this thread...

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Miranda

[Covfefe]

Recommendations on the reloading handbook, instructional books or DVD’s that are most useful to a new reloader? 

[SlvrDragon50]

Ultimate Reloader has a bunch of really good videos on Youtube. I found that videos were much more helpful than books.

[crispyrice]

I actually just pulled the trigger on the 650 Sunday and everything will be here Friday, They actually shipped Monday which surprised me.  Looks like we will be loading the same calibers but I just got everything for 9mm. This is what I got based on my research and needs.

XL650 (of course)

Strong Mount 

Case Feeder

Bullet Tray

Powder Check

Roller Handle 

Tool Holder Set

Extra Primer Tubes

Spare Parts Kit

Dillon Dies

That is what I got from Dillon then I also got the vibra-prime to fill tubes, Starlight press light, unitech micro powder measure, then redding micro competition seater and crimper dies. That is what I found I needed after reloading on a lee turret press and shooting more then I could reload in a week. The guys here are not lying when they say you will end up shooting more once you start reloading lol. I went with all the micro adjusting parts since I will be shooting FMJ for work related practice and then experimenting with moly for practice/matches, these may be unnecessary for you. With the vibra you wont need the flip tray and a pair of harbor freight calipers has worked wonders for me and got them on sale plus coupon for under $10. I have found that I use the calipers for a lot of other things so a nice Browne and Sharpe might be in the near future........ I use the cheap FA digital scale and it works for my needs at the moment and got the FA tumbler as well for brass. I did not purchase the Mr Bullet but it is on my list. I learned quickly on the lee press that if something will go wrong it will until everything is set up how you like it. That was PITA so I held off on the Mr. Bullet until I have everything set up and see if I need it, plus xmas is coming.

 

For components I go through powder valley like a lot here do, I just purchased a big order and got it in two days they are fast and have not had a problem. Everything is really personal preference  I got 321 with cci primers its clean, hard to double charge, and works with my setup. Just pick what you sounds best to you. 

 

I by no means have as much experience as others do here so just take what I said with a grain of salt

[Covfefe]

5 hours ago, crispyrice said:

I actually just pulled the trigger on the 650 Sunday and everything will be here Friday, They actually shipped Monday which surprised me.  Looks like we will be loading the same calibers but I just got everything for 9mm. This is what I got based on my research and needs.

XL650 (of course)

Strong Mount 

Case Feeder

Bullet Tray

Powder Check

Roller Handle 

Tool Holder Set

Extra Primer Tubes

Spare Parts Kit

Dillon Dies

That is what I got from Dillon then I also got the vibra-prime to fill tubes, Starlight press light, unitech micro powder measure, then redding micro competition seater and crimper dies. That is what I found I needed after reloading on a lee turret press and shooting more then I could reload in a week. The guys here are not lying when they say you will end up shooting more once you start reloading lol. I went with all the micro adjusting parts since I will be shooting FMJ for work related practice and then experimenting with moly for practice/matches, these may be unnecessary for you. With the vibra you wont need the flip tray and a pair of harbor freight calipers has worked wonders for me and got them on sale plus coupon for under $10. I have found that I use the calipers for a lot of other things so a nice Browne and Sharpe might be in the near future........ I use the cheap FA digital scale and it works for my needs at the moment and got the FA tumbler as well for brass. I did not purchase the Mr Bullet but it is on my list. I learned quickly on the lee press that if something will go wrong it will until everything is set up how you like it. That was PITA so I held off on the Mr. Bullet until I have everything set up and see if I need it, plus xmas is coming.

 

For components I go through powder valley like a lot here do, I just purchased a big order and got it in two days they are fast and have not had a problem. Everything is really personal preference  I got 321 with cci primers its clean, hard to double charge, and works with my setup. Just pick what you sounds best to you. 

 

I by no means have as much experience as others do here so just take what I said with a grain of salt

 

Awesome. Thanks for posting. 

[858]

9 hours ago, Covfefe said:

Recommendations on the reloading handbook, instructional books or DVD’s that are most useful to a new reloader? 

 

If you're going to rely on just one manual, I like the Speer manual because it includes the intros to reloading. The Hornady and Nosler manuals are also very good for the money. Sierra's manual is physically giant but as good as Hornady and Nosler.

Edited November 2, 2017 by 858

[Covfefe]

XL 650 and lots of goodies are inbound! 

 

Really excited. Thanks for the support guys. The shooting community is really something special. 

[MemphisMechanic]

I learned on a 650 with no more help than extensive reading on this forum, and chats with local shooters who one one. My first squib was actually 40,000+ round into operating that press since 2008.

 

(It occurred this year after installing a Mr Bulletfeeder and making an obvious technical mistake with the new operating procedure.)

 

I have never loaded a double charge.

 

Look at the powder level in each case manually. PARTICULARLY the first 4 rounds loaded after clearing a malfunction on the press. If you have an empty or doubled case, that’s when it’ll happen.

 

Keep a small box of deprimed and resized brass next to the press. Anytime you pitch a case because it’s damaged or a .380 snuck in there when you’re loading 9mm, replace it with a good one from your bin at station 2 then press the waiting primer into it. You won’t have primers getting jettisoned down the ski jump or waste time with stations left empty while reloading.

 

 

[Broncman]

Got my 650 up and running this week. Do not have a case feeder yet but adapted a Lee collator and case feeder untill I get one.

 

Man this machine is so smooth and runs great. Love it . Hard to keep the case feeder from running out.

 

Reloading is actually enjoyable now.

[Covfefe]

4 minutes ago, Broncman said:

Got my 650 up and running this week. Do not have a case feeder yet but adapted a Lee collator and case feeder untill I get one.

 

Man this machine is so smooth and runs great. Love it . Hard to keep the case feeder from running out.

 

Reloading is actually enjoyable now.

 

I bit the bullet (pun intended) and got the case feeder and roller handle to make life easier. 

[Covfefe]

10 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

...

 

Keep a small box of deprimed and resized brass next to the press. Anytime you pitch a case because it’s damaged or a .380 snuck in there when you’re loading 9mm, replace it with a good one from your bin at station 2 then press the waiting primer into it. You won’t have primers getting jettisoned down the ski jump or waste time with stations left empty while reloading.

 

 

This is a great idea BTW. Thanks! 

[MHitchcock]

49 minutes ago, Covfefe said:

 

I bit the bullet (pun intended) and got the case feeder and roller handle to make life easier. 

 

Just wait, biting the bullet starts with the case feeder...then the bullet feeder, then a 1050, then an autodrive. Down the rabbit whole we go! 

[crispyrice]

On 11/17/2017 at 9:33 PM, MHitchcock said:

 

Just wait, biting the bullet starts with the case feeder...then the bullet feeder, then a 1050, then an autodrive. Down the rabbit whole we go! 

 

This exactly I’m already think should I get a bullet feeder or maybe just get a 1050 with auto drive.....but then I snap back into reality haha 

[Tom S.]

On 11/1/2017 at 8:34 PM, 858 said:

 

If you're going to rely on just one manual, I like the Speer manual because it includes the intros to reloading. The Hornady and Nosler manuals are also very good for the money. Sierra's manual is physically giant but as good as Hornady and Nosler.

 

I know like Ford vs Chevy and Lee vs Dillon, everyone has their favorite reloading manual, and I like all the ones you mention, but I think Lyman has them all beat.  While it does everything the others do, it does it without favoring a specific brand bullet (other than their lead cast bullets).  Decades ago, Speer gave loads for bullets they didn't make, but all their more recent manuals cover only their products.  So if they don't manufacture a bullet in the weight or style you're interested in, too bad.  Same pretty much goes for the others you mention.

 

I do wholeheartedly agree with owning more than one manual though.