Squib or slide stuck with live round in gun

[IHAVEGAS]

If you are the ro when a shooter has either a bullet stuck in the barrel, or a live round partially loaded into the barrel and a stuck slide, what is the correct procedure to follow without violating any safety rules?

 

 

[Bkreutz]

On a squib, I ensure there is no live cartridge in the chamber, give the shooter my squib rod and direct him to the safety table for repairs (or bagging it for the trip home). Closest I ever got to  a live round stuck was a broken extractor, but the round fell out with the slide locked back and tilted up. I've never come across the second situation that I couldn't remedy in the stage.

[motosapiens]

This comes up from time to time. With a live round, have an RO escort the shooter to an empty bay or unloading station or some other place where the gun can be safely worked on and cleared without holding up the match.

[perttime]

IPSC has:

5.7.4 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded firearm.

 

How is the USPSA rule for this?

 

It has happened that a live round was stuck in the chamber, and the shooter was unable to eject it by pulling back the slide. Sometimes slamming the  front of the barrel/slide against a Fault Line (a 2x2, or similar) has fixed this. During practice, just firing the round is the easiest way, but I think, in contest, it would count as fired during course of fire.

[Bkreutz]

3 hours ago, perttime said:

IPSC has:

5.7.4 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded firearm.

 

How is the USPSA rule for this?

USPSA has the same rule:

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13). But that doesn't preclude the competitor being escorted to an appropriate place by a RO (as was already said)

3 hours ago, perttime said:

It has happened that a live round was stuck in the chamber, and the shooter was unable to eject it by pulling back the slide. Sometimes slamming the  front of the barrel/slide against a Fault Line (a 2x2, or similar) has fixed this. During practice, just firing the round is the easiest way, but I think, in contest, it would count as fired during course of fire.

But at that point the stage is already screwed, so it really wouldn't matter from a results aspect.

[9x45]

It's best to clear a hot gun on the line facing down range. Short of that the RO can instruct the shooter to proceed per 

 

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammuni-tion (e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition.

[perttime]

6 hours ago, Bkreutz said:

USPSA has the same rule:

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13). But that doesn't preclude the competitor being escorted to an appropriate place by a RO (as was already said)

 

But at that point the stage is already screwed, so it really wouldn't matter from a results aspect.

 

If a RO escorts a competitor with a loaded gun, the competitor is leaving the COF with a loaded gun???

 

The COF isn't necessarily screwed, yet, when you discover the sticky round at "If you are finished....."

[MikeBurgess]

in almost every case a gun with a round stuck in the chamber can be disassembled on the line to the point where it would be easy to make the argument that the competitor is not leaving the course of fire with a loaded gun. The example I have seen is pulling the slide, then we don't have a loaded gun, just a cartridge in a slide.

 

[MikeBurgess]

another option if a live round is stuck in the chamber due to a broken extractor and you are sure there is nothing else majorly wrong with the gun would be to have them shoot the round out into the berm. I believe that would fall well within 5.7.7

[Bkreutz]

9 hours ago, perttime said:

 

If a RO escorts a competitor with a loaded gun, the competitor is leaving the COF with a loaded gun???

There's a difference between the competitor leaving the COF alone as opposed to being escorted by a RO. The RO would ensure that the gun didn't sweep anyone during this action.
This is theoretical on my part, since I haven't experienced a stuck slide that I couldn't unstick.

9 hours ago, perttime said:

 

The COF isn't necessarily screwed, yet, when you discover the sticky round at "If you are finished....."

 

I was speaking about being screwed in the sense of time, if you spend a minute or so trying to unload, the stage is screwed (in the sense of final match results).

[perttime]

2 hours ago, Bkreutz said:

I was speaking about being screwed in the sense of time, if you spend a minute or so trying to unload, the stage is screwed (in the sense of final match results).

 

How? Time for the COF ends at the last shot, right?

 

You are screwed if you have to fire the sticky round. If you can get out of the situation without firing, you could still have a good score.

[motosapiens]

27 minutes ago, perttime said:

 

How? Time for the COF ends at the last shot, right?

 

You are screwed if you have to fire the sticky round. If you can get out of the situation without firing, you could still have a good score.

you can fire a shot to clear a gun after the COF is over. people with 22's do it all the time.

 

[teros135]

32 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

you can fire a shot to clear a gun after the COF is over. people with 22's do it all the time.

 

 

Under USPSA handgun rules?

[MikeBurgess]

I believe that 5.7.7 gives the RO the ability to do allow that. 

 

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammuni-tion (e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition.

[motosapiens]

45 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

Under USPSA handgun rules?

 was another thread about it earlier this year. conclusion seemed to be yes. Not something I really worry about.

[perttime]

11 hours ago, motosapiens said:

you can fire a shot to clear a gun after the COF is over. people with 22's do it all the time.

 

 

Isn't "Hammer down, Holster" the end of a COF?

[teros135]

Yes, but firing a shot after ICHDH is a DQ.  Still, for a malfunction there's 5.7.7 

Edited October 5, 2017 by teros135

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, perttime said:

 

Isn't "Hammer down, Holster" the end of a COF?

Actually, Range is clear, ends the COF BUT

5 hours ago, teros135 said:

Yes, but firing a shot after ICHDH us a DQ.  Still, for a malfunction there's 5.7.7 

CORRECT

[perttime]

Just got the IPSC view from the IPSC Handgun Rules Director:

 

Q: You have a round stuck in the chamber during " ... unload and show clear". What are the options?

A: ... under RO supervision you could try to safely dislodge the round by using brute force against a prop. However, under no circumstances can you leave the stage with a loaded gun.

 

Q: If I fire the stuck round, does that count for time?

A: No, not if done under RO supervision during the ULASC process.

 

Q: What abut a squib?

A: If possible, and under RO supervision, you would insert a rod from the breech end of the handgun in an attempt to dislodge the squib. If that fails, the RO will need to call for further assistance to have the squib dislodged. If the gun can be safely disassembled on the line, the RO may escort you to another place (not being a Safety Area), for further action.

 

--------------------

Another view from an International Range Officer:

 

"If it's after the ULASC command, the front RO will announce the time of the last scoring shot to the score keeper or record it, then accompany the shooter to fire safely the stuck live round into the berm/backstop/any safe receptacle. Give the IC-HDH and declare the Range Clear.

If the live round can't be fired, the gun must be disassembled/cleared before leaving the bay.

If it's a squib, the time will be recorded after the shooter announced he stops his attempt at the CoF. The gun is then cleared before leaving the bay (A RO worth his/her salt has always a squib rod in the bag...;-)"

[waktasz]

If it's a squib, and there is no case left in the chamber, the gun is not loaded, per USPSA rules, and the shooter can take it to a safe area to pound it out. IPSC may be different, I wouldn't  know.

 

If the gun has a live round stuck in it, and talks to the RO about it, firing the round out is fine and does not add to your time. 

[Boudreaux78]

If a live round is stuck in a gun, the competitor has two minutes to fix it. This is not considered a squib. If after the two minutes are up, the RO must insure the weapon is unloaded, no live round in the chamber per the rules and most range rules. If the RO then fires the round into the berm to fix the problem, this would not add to the competitors time. All targets would be scored as is and the time would be recorded on the last shot the competitor fired. 

 

If the RO stops the competitor because he/she believes there is a squib and it is determined that there is actually a squib, the time of the last shot by the competitor is recorded and the targets are scored appropriately.

 

if there is not a squib, the competitor gets a reshoot.

[Boudreaux78]

Forgot to add, a new trick I learned is as an RO, carry a zip tie and feed it into the barrel from the chamber end to check for a squib. Prevents you from putting your hand over the muzzle just in case.