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Unload and show clear dq


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4 hours ago, mjmagee67 said:

A very important point being missed here is he failed to simply follow range commands.

 

The commands is "If finished, unload and SHOW Clear" "if clear, hammer down and holster"

 

You failed to SHOW clear, you failed to check clear for yourself. You simply racked the slide and dropped the hammer. Which is piss poor gun handling.

The clubs I shoot with will make a shooter rerack the slide and hold it open so the RO can check if the gun is clear. So you can see the gun Is clear.  

 

The bottom line is no one had ever won a match in unload and show clear, but many have gone home. Checking a gun to see if it is clear is never an action to take lightly. It is one of the most important things we do in firearm safety. Is the gun unloaded? When you dry fire how many times do you check the gun?

 

 Not how it went for what it is worth, just did not drop the magazine. R.O. and I both saw a clear barrel.

 

4 hours ago, mjmagee67 said:

Which is piss poor gun handling.

 

Just making a wild guess here but I suspect that the majority of dq threads are not about prized moments of gun handling greatness. 

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Personally, I like the way you have handled it and turned it into an informative thread for some who may be newer to the games. Thank you for being so candid about it. It's always easy for people to armchair QB something like this. Ignore it. DQ's happen. Hopefully more are handled like yours so we can learn from it and move on to make things safer.

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10 hours ago, open17 said:

 

Well--maybe.      Could be a DQ.     10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.       

This is the correct rule, I just got DQ'd for very same reason. Mag must be seated in gun for shot not to be considered AD. 

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1 hour ago, HoMiE said:

This is the correct rule, I just got DQ'd for very same reason. Mag must be seated in gun for shot not to be considered AD. 

not sure it's quite that cut and dried.

 

I have both made and witnessed (intentional) shots at nationals without the magazine in the gun.

Edited by motosapiens
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I seem to recall a previous discussion, possibly in the rules section of the forum, where it was discussed about a A.D. being a DQ offense even if it happens during the COF and not at ULSC.

If Im remembering correctly the question was about a guy firing an unintended shot while in the act of reloading. The shot went downrange  and was "safe" in that it didn't hit anything bad but the RO DQ'd him. 

I wish I remembered what rule he was DQ'd under.

The thread was quite some time ago which is probably why I'm having such trouble remembering it.

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This discussion goes round like a merry go round. I think it was recently fully vetted at a Nationals (if I remember correctly). The rules clearly indicate that the end of the COF is "If Clear, Hammer Down Holster" A shot after that is a DQ.

 

However, it is perfectly legal to fire a shot before HD&H. So a competitor while performing ULSC sees a target that needs an additional shot and takes that shot is within his rights and no DQ. In the cited case, it was obvious the shooter was actually in the process of ULSC but the gun was pointed downrange in the direction of the targets. A DQ was initially called and then changed. The idea was that everyone including the shooter knew it was an AD but the RO cannot know what is in the shooters mind. It is not necessary that a gun be at eye level or the shot be somehow obviously aimed to be  valid shot. It occurred before the end of the COF, was pointed at targets generally, and did not violate any other prohibitions (hit ground too close, over the berm) so it was legitimate shot not a DQ.

 

That appears to be the correct call unless we expect RO's to be mind readers. 

 

 

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21 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 Not how it went for what it is worth, just did not drop the magazine. R.O. and I both saw a clear barrel.

 

 

 

When you and the RO looked to see if the gun was clear neither or you saw the round sticking up ready to be stripped off when the slide closes? That a pretty big thing to miss. 

 

Checking clear is not just looking in the chamber it's also checking that there isn't a magazine and a round that can be loaded. 

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1 hour ago, mjmagee67 said:

When you and the RO looked to see if the gun was clear neither or you saw the round sticking up ready to be stripped off when the slide closes? That a pretty big thing to miss. 

 

Checking clear is not just looking in the chamber it's also checking that there isn't a magazine and a round that can be loaded. 

It happens no matter how diligent you are. That's why we don't point guns at anything we are not willing to destroy.

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1 hour ago, mjmagee67 said:

When you and the RO looked to see if the gun was clear neither or you saw the round sticking up ready to be stripped off when the slide closes? That a pretty big thing to miss. 

 

Checking clear is not just looking in the chamber it's also checking that there isn't a magazine and a round that can be loaded. 

 

 

Trolling?

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22 hours ago, motosapiens said:

not sure it's quite that cut and dried.

 

I have both made and witnessed (intentional) shots at nationals without the magazine in the gun.

If you look at the definition of reloading in the appendix, you will see that the magazine needs to be fully inserted or shot is considered during reload and DQ under 10.4.3

 

Reloading - The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire).

 

If you say ok, you do t know if the shooter is finished at IFUSC, then a reload has been started and must be completed before a shot can be fired if they are to make up shots.

 

I no longer fire shots with mag removed and round in chamber when I think I am finished with CoF. 

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I see what you are saying, and I think it gives you a legit way to issue a dq on an obviously unintended and dangerous shot at ULSC, but if you took that rule literally, you would be dq'ing people who didn't fully seat the mag, which then fell out, and then they fired at a target and went to slide-lock. that happens all the time and no one gets dq'd for it. Likewise, imho, no one *should* be getting dq'd for dropping the mag then firing the last shot to make up a hardcover mike (like I did at nats in 2014). It was an obviously aimed shot, where I had stopped the unloading process and decided to shoot.

 

thanks for your post tho. It causes me to reconsider my earlier position. Even if the  RO hadn't called the If clear HDAH, I think it's a legit dq (and obvious safety violation) to cook off an AD during ULSC.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9/21/2017 at 7:24 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

Same old story.

 

Was distracted, did ulsc by muscle memory without taking my time and without making sure the r.o. was involved.

 

Did not drop the mag, so, boom.

 

Reason for this note, noticed a shooter who followed this process  at the next match

1. Remove mag.

2. Put mag you just removed in mag pouch. This takes enough time to insure that the r.o. has a chance to get where he needs to be.

3. After mag is stowed clear the gun and etcetera. 

 

Seems like a great way to do things. 

 

On the bright side, small squad was short of help so I did all the r.o. stuff on the remaining stages and made their life easier. 

 

Good guy, staying after to help after being DQ'd.  Nice effort.

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  • 5 months later...

I've made it part of my at home training when I first got my Black Badge, to do a LAMR and UASC  routine until it was drilled into my head and second nature. Though at one shoot last year, I totally forgot my LAMR routine due too many external influences (bad weather and buddy chirping me). After shooting the stage, I wait in the high ready position and wait for the RO to give the If-finished-UASC, usually by that time he/she will be next to me observing. Eject and reholster mag (first pouch on my belt is a magnet style so I'm not fumbling to get it into a pouch), rack slide back and hold up for the RO to see then give the HDAH command. Just got to remember that when you're on the line, it's YOUR time so no need to rush yourself to get off and make mistakes.

 

 

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On 9/21/2017 at 3:30 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

No. 10.4 is worth rereading. If they add "center punched a barrel via oopsie" they'd a had me. 

 

OMG. That needs to be added to the rulebook ASAP, lol.  :D

 

NROI, where you at?!

 

Thanks for the post. Like a few have said, I think you could have argued your way out of it if you really wanted to, but if I was the shooter, I also would have taken the DQ and moved on. Bet it doesn't happen again!

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56 minutes ago, matteekay said:

Bet it doesn't happen again!

 

Knock on wood. So far since it happened I am the most thorough show clear person that I know, I'm thinking some r.o.'s probably wonder why I take so long :) . 

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  • 3 months later...

I always put the mag in my pocket and rack the slide multiple times.  Look at daylight my self and have the RO say clear.  I notice when you become a regular this can get relaxed a bit but I always make sure I show to not get in bad habbits.

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  • 1 month later...
9 minutes ago, Nalle2491 said:

I use to go really fast during the ulsc myself.. got a wnarning for not letting the RO actually look down the barrel. I’ve slowed down since then.

In my world, you can do that...you'll just get to do it again, so that I can see it!

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6 minutes ago, jdk129 said:

In my world, you can do that...you'll just get to do it again, so that I can see it!

 

Yep, I had this happen when I was RO a couple weeks ago. I just yelled out, “I didn’t see it!” He pulled the slide back again and after verifying, I gave the ICHDH. But remember, the first word of that command is “IF” so ultimately it’s on the shooter when there’s a bang on hammer down.

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1 hour ago, Mcfoto said:

 

Yep, I had this happen when I was RO a couple weeks ago. I just yelled out, “I didn’t see it!” He pulled the slide back again and after verifying, I gave the ICHDH. But remember, the first word of that command is “IF” so ultimately it’s on the shooter when there’s a bang on hammer down.

I had a guy get to the end of a stage (last shooting position) and when I started the if finished ULSC and he realized he missed a target at the previous shooting position. He started backing up as did I. It could have been a dynamic RO trap, if I hadn't been on my toes. He made the last two shots, but I'm sure it was a time killer in the making.  

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