PCC Starting Position Variations?

[Hammer002]

48 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

There are some folks out there that may think having a totally different start position for PCC is a good idea. What  if you tell them they can't do that and they ask "why"? If it is a USPSA match, the answer has to be in the rule book.

 

Backwards.  I need to see a rule that says you CAN do that.  The rule book cannot address every crazy thought the human mind can come up with.  By your logic, single stack starts wherever they like and does not have to engage targets beyond 10 yards, open has to put three shots on every target and only As count, and PCC must snipe the stage from 100 yards.  By your logic, A level shooters start 20 yards away with their hands tied behind their back, D shooters can have two people shooting the stage simultaneously for one score, and  GMs start with gun in glove box with all ammo in trunk in parking lot.  Please.

 

41 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Ahh, but we are NOT all shooting the same match, we are shooting 8 individual matches that happen to be concurrently run on the same stages. Each division is only competing against itself. 

 

Nice try, but no.  Never mentioned "match," although it's irrelevant except to point out you, yourself said, "run on the SAME stages."  If one division has a completely different starting area than the others, it's a completely different stage.  High overall is still awarded no matter the division, but based on the same stages being shot.  It's one match based on several stages, everyone having shot the same stages for a comparing score.  

 

 

There's a term for all this:  Trolling.  And it's not helping anyone.  Even the OP knew it sounded wrong.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Hammer002

[OPENB]

Hammer, you must have gone to a COMPLETELY different RO course than the rest of us. So wrong in so many ways. There is no such thing as HOA awarded to anyone. It is a fiction that Practiscore shows for S&G's. USPSA doesn't even bother, cause it means nothing but ego stroke. And, yes indeed, things need a rule number to back them up. Our opinions on how something should be mean nothing without a rule number. And, how you interpreted Chuck's logic, well, that makes no sense. 

[OPENB]

As to the premise of the need to somehow throttle the PCC guys to keep them out of the top 10, whatever. I'm only shooting against PCC. It is 8 different matches going on simultaneously. I wish Practiscore wouldn't even show it. All it does it get such useful threads like this started. 

[Hammer002]

6 minutes ago, OPENB said:

Hammer, you must have gone to a COMPLETELY different RO course than the rest of us. So wrong in so many ways. There is no such thing as HOA awarded to anyone. It is a fiction that Practiscore shows for S&G's. USPSA doesn't even bother, cause it means nothing but ego stroke. And, yes indeed, things need a rule number to back them up. Our opinions on how something should be mean nothing without a rule number. And, how you interpreted Chuck's logic, well, that makes no sense. 

 

Really, that's interesting.

 

https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-worldshoot-winners.php

 

high overall, high overall, high overall, high overall, high overall.  

 

Thats cool.  You guys have shown none of you know anything about what you are talking about and just play forum games, and that's why there are no real shooters here, as I was told there wouldn't be.  Done here before the stupid gets on me.  Have a nice day.

[ChuckS]

12 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Backwards.  I need to see a rule that says you CAN do that.  The rule book cannot address every crazy thought the human mind can come up with.  By your logic, single stack starts wherever they like and does not have to engage targets beyond 10 yards, open has to put three shots on every target and only As count, and PCC must snipe the stage from 100 yards.  By your logic, A level shooters start 20 yards away with their hands tied behind their back, D shooters can have two people shooting the stage simultaneously for one score, and  GMs start with gun in glove box with all ammo in trunk in parking lot.  Please.

 

 

Nice try, but no.  Never mentioned "match," although it's irrelevant except to point out you, yourself said, "run on the SAME stages."  If one division has a completely different starting area than the others, it's a completely different stage.  High overall is still awarded no matter the division, but based on the same stages being shot.  It's one match based on several stages, everyone having shot the same stages for a comparing score.  

 

 

There's a term for all this:  Trolling.  And it's not helping anyone.  Even the OP knew it sounded wrong.

 

 

In addition to being an nazi and a troll, I am one of the few active CRO certified USPSA officials in SoCal. As such, I get many questions as to the legality of this and that. I enjoy following discussions such as this because it gets me thinking and going back into the rule book to find answers. Think of it as dryfire for the RO. The subject of different start positions for PCC was interesting due to the fact that there are some differences in the (provisional) rules already. I went looking to see if it could be done and I found no restrictions within the framework of chapters 1-4 of the rule book. That framework sets limits on stage design and execution but it allows for much freedom in doing the designs. This issue is not addressed.

 

The rules began with a 4 page document published by Jeff Cooper in 1978. I am pretty sure that most of the rule growth since then is due to people doing things like the subject of this thread and the organization reacting to things perceived as a negative actions. The rules are mostly procedural or "can'ts". I can not imagine the size of the rule book if we had to have "cans" for everything we do in a typical match.

 

in any case, I have to get back to my prep for the Nationals where I will have to tell people why they can't do something and back it up with the rulebook.

 

Peace, Out...

[OPENB]

Those HOA indicate that Eric Grauffel scored highest in open but couldn't be National Champ because he wasn't from our region. All those winners on the left, are Americans.  Same for Steve Broom being a champ, but Grauffel scoring higher than him overall IN THE DIVISION. USPSA doesn't recognize HOA across divisions. But yeah, what do I know. 

[JAFO]

2 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

U need a specific rule to tell you you can't make a stage that says "everyone starts with toes on Xs, PCC starts in the parking lot"?  I usually respect your opinion, but come on.  I'm not a rule nazi, so I can't pick a sentence with a number associated to it in a book off the top of my head, nor am I willing to comb the book looking for something to support my common sense statement, but I'm pretty confident if we are all shooting 8 stages for the day they have to be the same 8.

 

I think once they started PCC, they made alternate (i.e., PCC-specific) start positions possible by default, along with a lot of other rules (or exemptions to the rules) that are specific to that Division only:

• You cannot have uprange starts with PCC.
• You cannot have surrender starts with PCC (unless it's a gun-on-table scenario).
• You can start touching the gun in PCC. 
• Strong hand only is the same as freestyle in PCC.  Weak hand only is weak side, but with two hands.

So there are already a lot of things that are treated differently with PCC.  Having said that, I really don't see the need to alter the difficulty of a start position for PCC vs the other Divisions, because they are really only competing against other PCC shooters.  Yes, they may win HOA, but HOA isn't going to win a new gun at a local.  It might win a plaque at a Sectional or Area match, if they decide to recognize it.  The only mention of High Overall in the rulebook is this statement from the introductory section on Classifications:

 

"; winning High Overall in an Area Championship may promote you to Grand Master class."

 

Note that it says "may", so I would reasonably predict that PCC would be exempt from that bump, since it's a rifle shooting against a majority of pistols.  Since they do have things like a SS-only championship, they might decide to have a PCC-only championship.  Then I think the above statement should apply.

[MikeBurgess]

52 minutes ago, JAFO said:

"; winning High Overall in an Area Championship may promote you to Grand Master class."

Even this is division specific.

 

While I have seen a High Overall non division specific award given out, it has only been once in 10 years 

 

I have seen the words High Overall used to describe a division winner many many times though

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by MikeBurgess

[Flatland Shooter]

In the past when we saw a HOA award given out at a Level 2 or 3 match it always went to an Open shooter.  How come the other divisions didn't complain then?

Edited September 21, 2017 by Flatland Shooter

[Dlister70]

Wow, this one kind of got off the rails!

 

I wasn't necessarily looking to "handicap" the PCC shooter, I was just trying to think of a fair way to cost the same amount of time to be burned before the first shot.  In my mind, the time taken for a good pistol shooter to turn and draw and fire should be matched up with a similar time consuming task for a good PCC shooter so that they are on equal footing to start the stage.  Low ready and stock on belt both seemed quicker based on the matches that I've participated in, so I was looking for another PCC start option.

 

But as has been pointed out several times, since PCC isn't really competing with the other divisions, there is no need to make the starts "equal".

[Dlister70]

7 hours ago, perttime said:

Are you also going to design so that revolvers are not at a disadvantage?

 

 

For each of the stages that I design, I run through in my head to try to see how I'd shoot it with a revolver and change things if it seems like the revolver shooter has to shoot a much harder course of fire than the open guy.  I had one stage that you could see a target from two shooting positions, so technically, I was within the 8 shots per position.. but a revolver shooter would have almost *had* to shoot it from the far away position due to other activators and such that had to be shot from the closer position, or else they would have had a standing reload.  So I changed things up to try to make it more fair to my 8 shot shooters.

 

In the end, I'm probably over thinking the design, and should probably quit trying to be "fair" to every division, and just make fun stages.

 

Besides, Jerry Miculek with a six shooter would still beat me with a PCC, so it's more about the shooter than it is about the gun. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Dlister70

[wgj3]

3 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Really, that's interesting.

 

https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-worldshoot-winners.php

 

high overall, high overall, high overall, high overall, high overall.  

 

Thats cool.  You guys have shown none of you know anything about what you are talking about and just play forum games, and that's why there are no real shooters here, as I was told there wouldn't be.  Done here before the stupid gets on me.  Have a nice day.

 

You're just wrong.

[teros135]

5 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

<snip> ...Thats cool.  You guys have shown none of you know anything about what you are talking about and just play forum games, and that's why there are no real shooters here, as I was told there wouldn't be.  Done here before the stupid gets on me.  Have a nice day.

 

Too late...

[Thomas H]

17 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Backwards.  I need to see a rule that says you CAN do that.  The rule book cannot address every crazy thought the human mind can come up with.  By your logic, single stack starts wherever they like and does not have to engage targets beyond 10 yards, open has to put three shots on every target and only As count, and PCC must snipe the stage from 100 yards.  By your logic, A level shooters start 20 yards away with their hands tied behind their back, D shooters can have two people shooting the stage simultaneously for one score, and  GMs start with gun in glove box with all ammo in trunk in parking lot.  Please.

 

 

Nice try, but no.  Never mentioned "match," although it's irrelevant except to point out you, yourself said, "run on the SAME stages."  If one division has a completely different starting area than the others, it's a completely different stage.  High overall is still awarded no matter the division, but based on the same stages being shot.  It's one match based on several stages, everyone having shot the same stages for a comparing score.  

 

 

There's a term for all this:  Trolling.  And it's not helping anyone.  Even the OP knew it sounded wrong.

 

 

 

Indeed, what you are doing seems to be trolling.

 

However, on the off chance that you are actually uninformed and are interested in learning better...

1) Freestyle means that unless there is a rule against it, the shooter can do it.  There is no case of "I need to see a rule that says you CAN do that."  That's the opposite of how we do things.

2) That's separate from starting positions in the parking lot or other such nonsense, which are obviously not-legal due to being outside the safe confines of the bay area.

3) That's also separate from making rules saying that one division has different scoring rules than the others---because we have specific scoring rules that apply to all.

4) Similarly, specifying rules per class isn't allowed, because the scoring rules apply to all divisions and thus all classes within the division.

 

In other words, a firmer knowledge of the rulebook would help you significantly.  I would strongly suggest that you take the RO class if you want to learn more about how the sport works, and thus gain a greater understanding of how stages are made, matches are run, and what is expected of the shooter.

 

You've said a lot of things that show you don't understand the sport---learning the rules will help you a lot.

 

[Kraj]

21 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 I'm not a rule nazi, so I can't pick a sentence with a number associated to it in a book off the top of my head, nor am I willing to comb the book looking for something to support my common sense statement, but I'm pretty confident if we are all shooting 8 stages for the day they have to be the same 8.

 

 

I don't know the rules, and won't be bothered to read the rules. But I'll call people names when they disagree with me about what the rules are

[brisix]

22 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Just curious why low ready should not be used.

As mentioned above stock on belt requires some skill and practice.  Low ready is blah...

[Flatland Shooter]

12 minutes ago, brisix said:

As mentioned above stock on belt requires some skill and practice.  Low ready is blah...

 

Low ready may be blah, but use it as the start position and design the stage where there is some movement before the first target.  In practice I find its (slightly) slower than starting from the belt.

 

Like other start positions, as long as its safe, stage designers are allowed to incorporate it in their stages.

 

(And I practice both.)

Edited September 22, 2017 by Flatland Shooter

[Topgeer]

At most matches here they start from belt.  One starts low ready.  Most time seems no one knows what's going on in pcc

[d_striker]

I think I'm going to start using a start position like this on my stages.

 

"Hands relaxed at sides, holding PCC with one hand, muzzle pointed downrange."

[Flatland Shooter]

6 minutes ago, d_striker said:

I think I'm going to start using a start position like this on my stages.

 

"Hands relaxed at sides, holding PCC with one hand, muzzle pointed downrange."

 

Perfectly legal as long as you don't require the competitor start with the gun on their weak side (PCC 8.2.4) or fire it with just one hand (PCC Appendix A3).

[Patrick Scott]

On 10/7/2017 at 8:28 PM, d_striker said:

I think I'm going to start using a start position like this on my stages.

 

"Hands relaxed at sides, holding PCC with one hand, muzzle pointed downrange."

 

On 10/7/2017 at 8:37 PM, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Perfectly legal as long as you don't require the competitor start with the gun on their weak side (PCC 8.2.4) or fire it with just one hand (PCC Appendix A3).

 

Interesting, but is that really "Hands relaxed" if you are holding something? How about "Wrists below belt, holding PCC in one hand, muzzle pointed downrange"?

[d_striker]

On 10/10/2017 at 10:40 AM, Patrick Scott said:

 

 

Interesting, but is that really "Hands relaxed" if you are holding something? How about "Wrists below belt, holding PCC in one hand, muzzle pointed downrange"?

 

Good point.

[Shadyscott999]

On 9/21/2017 at 4:56 PM, Hammer002 said:

 

Really, that's interesting.

 

https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-worldshoot-winners.php

 

high overall, high overall, high overall, high overall, high overall.  

 

Thats cool.  You guys have shown none of you know anything about what you are talking about and just play forum games, and that's why there are no real shooters here, as I was told there wouldn't be.  Done here before the stupid gets on me.  Have a nice day.

 

I don't think you know nearly as much as you think you know.

[Hammer002]

On September 21, 2017 at 3:45 PM, OPENB said:

Hammer, you must have gone to a COMPLETELY different RO course than the rest of us. So wrong in so many ways. There is no such thing as HOA awarded to anyone. It is a fiction that Practiscore shows for S&G's. USPSA doesn't even bother, cause it means nothing but ego stroke. And, yes indeed, things need a rule number to back them up. Our opinions on how something should be mean nothing without a rule number. And, how you interpreted Chuck's logic, well, that makes no sense. 

 

On October 11, 2017 at 8:48 PM, Shadyscott999 said:

 

I don't think you know nearly as much as you think you know.

 

On September 22, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Thomas H said:

 

Indeed, what you are doing seems to be trolling.

 

However, on the off chance that you are actually uninformed and are interested in learning better...

1) Freestyle means that unless there is a rule against it, the shooter can do it.  There is no case of "I need to see a rule that says you CAN do that."  That's the opposite of how we do things.

2) That's separate from starting positions in the parking lot or other such nonsense, which are obviously not-legal due to being outside the safe confines of the bay area.

3) That's also separate from making rules saying that one division has different scoring rules than the others---because we have specific scoring rules that apply to all.

4) Similarly, specifying rules per class isn't allowed, because the scoring rules apply to all divisions and thus all classes within the division.

 

In other words, a firmer knowledge of the rulebook would help you significantly.  I would strongly suggest that you take the RO class if you want to learn more about how the sport works, and thus gain a greater understanding of how stages are made, matches are run, and what is expected of the shooter.

 

You've said a lot of things that show you don't understand the sport---learning the rules will help you a lot.

 

So how about all you smart guys explain this recent post by Max Michel. Guess he doesn't know what he's talking about either, maybe he should consult with some of you geniuses.

https://m.facebook.com/maxmichel.us/?__tn__=C-R

 

"The results are final from the OK Sectional and I was able to not only take home the win in the Carry Optics Division but also the Overall Championship as well! This is the 2nd time this year at a State level match that I was able to take home the overall title beating out the race guns with my Sig Sauer #p320rx. I also managed to be the fastest shooter overall while shooting nearly 94% of the available points. I'm pretty excited about that as shooing minor power factor, the points down add up quickly. Another big thank you to my family and sponsors for allowing me to do what I love! Up next... LA Gator Classic this weekend. #whenitcounts #SIGlife #MYP320 Sig Sauer Electro-Optics HIVIZ Shooting Systems Hogue Inc Cabela's Action Target Otis Technology Laser Shot Brazen Sports "

 

Oh, and by the way, as far as understanding PCC, I just hit GM this past weekend in USPSA steel challenge, and remain an A in uspsa after my first couple months shooting it,  just might have run across a rule book along the way and might have gained some sort of an understanding as to what's going on.  But thanks for all the wonderful internet advice, see you on the range.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2017 by Hammer002

[ChuckS]

Can someone find the overall scores for the OK Sectional? Here's the link: https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-detail.php?indx=23617