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Does a shooter have to "show clear" to the RO?

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Why would you DQ him? Don't be a dick, use your words.   Sounds like he wasn't sure of what you were getting at, it was only after it was explained to him that he came back.

 

Maybe he had a small attitude, but that's still no reason for a DQ.   

 

 

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ive been asked multiple times to show clear and re open the slide to make sure nothing is in the chamber. At that point i hammer down and holster again. Its better to follow the RO on every command that try and get smart.

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I practice alone at a private range and have a tendency to rush through the USC pretty quick and sometimes I do that at a match.  I've had RO's ask a second time to show clear, and that's perfectly reasonable if he/she didn't actually see the empty chamber.  I don't see any reason a shooter would cop an attitude about it.  In the OP's situation, if the shooter walked away or refused to USC, I wouldn't hesitate to DQ.

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the next command is IF CLEAR HAMMER DOWN HOLSTER. not the RO's fault if it goes bang. That's why its IF clear.

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Agreed. If they won't give the RO the opportunity to at least glance at the chamber, the next step "If Clear.... "  puts it all on the shooter. If they don't want someone to visually back them up, and it goes bang when they pull the trigger to drop the hammer.... DQ, and its on them.

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4 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

I practice alone at a private range and have a tendency to rush through the USC pretty quick and sometimes I do that at a match.  I've had RO's ask a second time to show clear, and that's perfectly reasonable if he/she didn't actually see the empty chamber.  I don't see any reason a shooter would cop an attitude about it.  In the OP's situation, if the shooter walked away or refused to USC, I wouldn't hesitate to DQ.

This

 

I also fly though the ULSC but when I hold the slide back, I pull it just far enough that the RO actually has full view of the chamber (opposed to pulling the slide all the way back forcing the RO to struggle to see a clear chamber) and wait for the "If clear" command.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I agree that it’s on the shooter to BE clear, but the RO has every right to be SHOWN clear. My preference as a shooter is to go to slide lock after ejecting the last round and letting the RO get a good look at the empty chamber. As an RO, if the Original poster’s scenario happened to me, I would not proceed to the “if clear, hammer down, holster.” Agree also that an RO can’t declare the range clear, if they haven’t verified the weapon is emptied.

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As an RO: I much prefer to see an open and empty chamber, in a perfect world this would be slide held about halfway open. However, I know that it is the shooter's responsibility to ensure it is empty, so if they fly through their ULSC and it doesn't go bang, then all is fine and dandy in the world. I am not going to make someone draw again and show me an empty gun except in extreme circumstances.

 

As a shooter: Flip and catch, a few aggressive racks of the slide, then I will wait with a half open slide until I get the "If clear" command to drop the hammer and holster up. 

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On 9/18/2017 at 10:48 PM, rooster said:

If shooter did not come back and show clear what rule would be used to DQ?

10.6.1.,  "failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official"

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Whether the RO sees the chamber clear or not, "If, Clear Hammer Down" and it goes bang, it is still on the shooter. That is why its not "I see clear, hammer down". all actions are on the shooter, the RO should not deviate from the Official Commands. If the shooter fails to comply then its a DQ under 10.6.1 as stated. At Level 1 matches I see alot of inconsistencies and that is what causes alot of confusion. It is a dis-service to competitors to deviate at local matches. JMHO

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7 hours ago, Jammer1911 said:

Whether the RO sees the chamber clear or not, "If, Clear Hammer Down" and it goes bang, it is still on the shooter. That is why its not "I see clear, hammer down". all actions are on the shooter, the RO should not deviate from the Official Commands. If the shooter fails to comply then its a DQ under 10.6.1 as stated. At Level 1 matches I see alot of inconsistencies and that is what causes alot of confusion. It is a dis-service to competitors to deviate at local matches. JMHO

I concur!  Often at local matches same people squad together and become "too" comfortable and get lax on the rules.  It should very much so, be avoided.  It's a huge misjudgment on all parties for that to happen.  No one wants to spend time and money traveling to a larger match to DQ. So do yourself a favor at your local, and make sure everyone practices keeping full compliance within the rules.  

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On 8/5/2018 at 4:04 PM, Jammer1911 said:

...At Level 1 matches I see alot of inconsistencies and that is what causes alot of confusion. It is a dis-service to competitors to deviate at local matches. JMHO

If that is the case, it would be a good idea to take the MD aside and explain why he/she needs to stop any confusion. 

 

At our matches, we get the SO/ROs together periodically and review the range commands, as some get a bit lax and need reminding. When we run a sanctioned match, it is always an item of discussion.

 

v/r,
Jeff

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I have and continue to do so as I see this. I feel it is my duty as a NROI Certified official and also my Sections Coordinator to speak up. Sometimes it is received well and sometimes not so much. I guess its a good thing I don't have feelings (As my wife tells me all the time) or they might get hurt. But we are a sport of rules and I will continue to enforce them.

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We pretty much see our local Level I as practice for bigger competitions, so we stick to the letter of the rules as a part of that. We don't want to teach bad habits. When I'm RO, I want to see into the chamber before continuing.

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This happened to me last weekend: running a shooter and he showed HIMSELF clear and closed the slide. I said "Stop, I didn't see it!" He pulled the slide back and let me see it, then I gave him the IC,HD,H. 

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As a SO, I always require them to show me the chamber. I want to see it empty and not presume it is. Safety first for me.


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I try not to deviate from the official range commands but I'll ask to see a clear chamber if the shooter doesn't understand or appears not to comply.  

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On 8/30/2018 at 2:12 AM, Stuey said:

As a SO, I always require them to show me the chamber. I want to see it empty and not presume it is. Safety first for me.
 

 

During the RO course, the instructor reminded us that people sometimes see what they want to see. If you expect to se an empty chamber, you might "see" one, even if there's a cartridge in there.

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Not too long ago, I was chastised (sorta) by a GM for making him show me clear after he did just what has been described.  He felt it was ultimately up to the shooter to be clear.  I maintained then, as I do now, I was right to ask to see clear.  

 

I too feel at our local matches we run through the commands and may not always be shown clear.  I have had one squad member get DQ'd at a local match, at the If Finished ..., he racked and then dropped the mag, so at the If Clear .. command it went BANG.  If he had shown the RO, If the RO had noticed, etc.  It's easy to get lax, and that's when bad things can happen. 

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I've been called on this twice since I started shooting. The 1st time was at my 1st major and the RO was standing behind me trying to look over my shoulder. Dude was not very nice about it, he basically yelled at me. I debated yelling back but I didn't want to show out during my first big match. The second time was at another major and the RO politely said, "I didn't see it clear would you mind showing me again". That worked a lot better. I, like a lot of other shooters have done it so many times we sometimes get into a bad habit of going through the whole sequence very quickly.  

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On 9/21/2017 at 11:55 AM, motosapiens said:

 

It comes across as a lot less dickish and will get a much quicker response if you just say, 'show clear again please, I didn't see that' or something similar explaining *why* you keep repeating yourself. Yeah, I know that's not an official range command. I've used it and I've had it used on me by some *very* experienced certified RMs  and it worked just fine and no kittens died.

 

This 1000%

 

A polite request will be remembered a hell of a lot better than repeating an already repetitive command. When I first shot with a hammer-fired gun in competition, the RO caught me guiding the hammer down gently with my fingers. He politely asked me to show clear again and drop the hammer with the trigger, he then explained that doing so "proves" the clear condition in case a mag was still in the gun, etc. Hearing him re-word a relatively simple command showed me that he truly understood the rules well enough to explain it to the layman. 

 

On the other hand, we had an out-of-town RO a few months back that aggressively called people out on everything that wasn't "perfect". I got called on reholstering while not being perfectly squared up with the downrange line. He also told me he "could almost DQ" me for going "170 degrees" during my COF. I gave him a blank stare rather than opening my mouth.  Dude just made everyone tense in an already high-energy situation. 

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21 minutes ago, Cypress said:

I got called on reholstering while not being perfectly squared up with the downrange line. 

 

nothing to call there. I'm a little more confrontational than you are with bad RO's, so I might have set him straight. While it's definitely good practice to face directly downrange to ULSC and reholster, it's not required.

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2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

nothing to call there. I'm a little more confrontational than you are with bad RO's, so I might have set him straight. While it's definitely good practice to face directly downrange to ULSC and reholster, it's not required.

 

I figured he had nothing on me officially. With the way he was treating the shooters in our squad, any verbal reply I would have given him would be a good bit more than "open the rule book and show me where it says I need to be perpendicular, and what the hell an "almost DQ" is."  

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If he does not show clear, you can’t follow with “hammer down and holster” or “range is clear” therefore no time will be given and everything comes to a stop until you as RO are satisfied that he showed you a clear chamber. My opinion.


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