Does a shooter have to "show clear" to the RO?

[Cuz]

After a shooter finishes shooting a stage they very quickly go through a "unload, hammer down, holster" sequence without ever "showing clear".

 

What should the RO do?

 

 

 

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[Bhayden]

I will have them go back and show clear. I will also explain that how fast they get the pistol back in the holster doesn't count for score.

[AzShooter]

Bhaden is right.  They must SHOW CLEAR, then hammer down and holster.  If they go too quickly ask them to do it again.  SAFETY FIRST.

 

[Cuz]

That's exactly what I did, I repeated the "If finished..." command and got a slightly annoyed look from the shooter.  He then took a couple of steps to walk away from me and I repeated the command a 3rd time.  At that point someone else on the squad told him that I must have missed his unload and show clear so he should do it again for me.  He came back and finally did it for me.  I swear if he had taken another step or two away from me I was going to DQ him, but now I'm wondering if I was right or wrong.  It happened a second time in the match with a different shooter, but I only had to repeat the command once before they complied.

 

 

 

[rooster]

If shooter did not come back and show clear what rule would be used to DQ?

[Cuz]

That's a great question and the reason for my post. I'm not 100% sure what my options were or if I was right. I can tell you the shooters attitude made me annoyed. I would assume I could have DQd him for unsportsmanlike conduct, but I'm asking for input to see if I can better handle it in the future.
Thanks.


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[Garmil]

20 minutes ago, rooster said:

If shooter did not come back and show clear what rule would be used to DQ?

8.3.6

10.6.1 

[BSComp]

I would repeat the RO command, "if you are finished, unload and show clear" until the shooter followed the command. Once that command was followed I would commence with the remainder of the range commands. 

 

As an RO/CRO, I believe it is my duty to maintain a safe range. A major part (not the only) imho it's the RO and shooter properly executing and following the prescribed range commands. And they are just that, commands, not suggestions, not if you feel like its, not 'i did crappy on this stage and want to go's; they are commands prescribed by our rulebook as a measure to keep EVERYONE safe(r).

[Kurusty]

“If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” or “Unload and
Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower
his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the
muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held
open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the
cylinder swung out and empty.
If a competitor has been stopped by the Range Officer, they will be
given “Unload and show clear” as the command.
You can't give "range is clear" if they refuse.

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[Cuz]

Thanks all. I feel comfortable that I did the right thing and in the end the shooter complied and nobody got DQd. I really hate to DQ someone as it usually ruins my day/match just as much as theirs.


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[IHAVEGAS]

33 minutes ago, Cuz said:

I really hate to DQ someone as it usually ruins my day/match just as much as theirs.

 

I hope that goes away for you with a bit more experience. It has for me I think, 'sorry it happened but I didn't do it and it ain't my problem'.

 

Never had somebody fuss about me asking to show clear a second time, definitely something I would not care about if they did.

 

 

[191138sc]

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 9:48 PM, rooster said:

If shooter did not come back and show clear what rule would be used to DQ?

Safety is #1 in our sport. You could DQ under unsafe gun handling as you do not know if a round is still in the chamber.

[Nathanb]

Unload and show clear. The show part isn't optional. 

[Flatland Shooter]

3 hours ago, 191138sc said:

Safety is #1 in our sport. You could DQ under unsafe gun handling as you do not know if a round is still in the chamber.

 

As Garmil pointed out, Rule 10.6.1 applies.  

 

Match Disqualification – Unsportsmanlike Conduct 10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible.

 

[motosapiens]

On 9/18/2017 at 9:26 PM, BSComp said:

I would repeat the RO command, "if you are finished, unload and show clear" until the shooter followed the command.

 

It comes across as a lot less dickish and will get a much quicker response if you just say, 'show clear again please, I didn't see that' or something similar explaining *why* you keep repeating yourself. Yeah, I know that's not an official range command. I've used it and I've had it used on me by some *very* experienced certified RMs  and it worked just fine and no kittens died.

[peterthefish]

Might help to put it in perspective that a fair number of ROs don't really make any effort to verify a firearm is actually clear. I always make an effort to show clear, but can understand some folks might see it as more of a pro-forma exercise.

[BSComp]

 
It comes across as a lot less dickish and will get a much quicker response if you just say, 'show clear again please, I didn't see that' or something similar explaining *why* you keep repeating yourself. Yeah, I know that's not an official range command. I've used it and I've had it used on me by some *very* experienced certified RMs  and it worked just fine and no kittens died.

*Please explain to me why repeating a standard range command is "dickish" when there are others in this same thread that think it is appropriate to DQ a shooter under not following the reasonable directions of a much official. Sounds like you should save your dickish comment for someone else.*

[DagoRed]

Even if I have shown clear if I were asked again I'd do it and not feel bad. I've had that happen because RO couldn't see first time. It's about safety, that's their job and it's not fun having to enforce rules. 

 

I li will say though, after I show clear if they give me shit about how I cowboy twirl it into the holster....

 

Red

[motosapiens]

16 hours ago, BSComp said:

 

*Please explain to me why repeating a standard range command is "dickish" when there are others in this same thread that think it is appropriate to DQ a shooter under not following the reasonable directions of a much official. Sounds like you should save your dickish comment for someone else.*

 

 

we can agree to disagree if you like. If the shooter is walking away he either a) didn't understand what you were trying to communicate by simply repeating the range command over and over, or b ) is consciously refusing to cooperate.

 

b seems pretty unlikely, so it makes sense to me to just make life easier on everyone, and make it clear what you want. Note that I wasn't trying to imply that you were dickish, so I apologize if it came across that way. I have just observed people who simply repeated the same command over and over, and I have observed people who said 'can you show me clear again please', and the 2nd one gets better and more consistent results and everyone is happier.

Edited September 22, 2017 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I have just observed people who simply repeated the same command over and over, and I have observed people who said 'can you show me clear again please', and the 2nd one gets better and more consistent results and everyone is happier.

Agreed. Saying the same range command over and over seems childish.

[motosapiens]

Just now, Sarge said:

Agreed. Saying the same range command over and over seems childish.

that's like the 3rd time this week we've agreed. Perhaps the world really is ending saturday. I hope not, I've been loading and case-gauging ammo all week for a match saturday and then nationals. I'd hate to think I wasted that time.

[Sarge]

39 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that's like the 3rd time this week we've agreed. Perhaps the world really is ending saturday. I hope not, I've been loading and case-gauging ammo all week for a match saturday and then nationals. I'd hate to think I wasted that time.

Agreed. ?

[BSComp]

we can agree to disagree if you like. If the shooter is walking away he either a) didn't understand what you were trying to communicate by simply repeating the range command over and over, or b ) is consciously refusing to cooperate.
 
b seems pretty unlikely, so it makes sense to me to just make life easier on everyone, and make it clear what you want. Note that I wasn't trying to imply that you were dickish, so I apologize if it came across that way. I have just observed people who simply repeated the same command over and over, and I have observed people who said 'can you show me clear again please', and the 2nd one gets better and more consistent results and everyone is happier.

I apologize for my lack of clarity of what I was trying to say in my original post.

What I don't do (and wouldn't want to see done to me or any other shooter, new or experienced) is say literally, "unload and show clear" until the shooter complies.

What I do, an hope others do as well, is repeat once the literal range command, "unload and show clear". Then say, "show clear" and that most always gets it done.

Because we always try our best to give the shooter the full benefit of the doubt, I assume 'A' in your scenarios and not 'B'. Also more often than not, another shooter will discuss this with the shooter after scoring is complete. But if not, I will privately discuss it with the shooter after scoring is complete. In that conversation, I try to communicate to the shooter a couple points: 1) shooter is not on the clock at this point; 2) it is in everyone's best interest that two people confirm that the gun is clear; 3) a significant amount of accidents that occur do so in the unload, show clear, and holstering process.

I hope this sheds a little better and clearer light on my initial post.

[Darthrader18]

When I first started I was always trying to rush to put the gun up, I thought it made me look cool, lol I now make sure the RO can clearly see the chamber is empty and I slowly give commands to shooters to make sure I don't miss anything. 

[stick]

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 4:23 PM, Bhayden said:

I will have them go back and show clear. I will also explain that how fast they get the pistol back in the holster doesn't count for score.

This

I will clearly tell them I didn't see it and I won't call the range clear until I do.