Help with new PCC info

[Hammer002]

I recently heard there have been some changes regarding PCC that might have got by me and I'm trying to find them.  Possibly their omission alone is my answer, but there was recently a situation leading to discussion leading to my involvement and now further research. 

 

Was at a local USPSA match with a guy walking around with his SBR PCC flagged and slung.  He was acting as the RO for another squad ours was waiting on when I noticed he was sweeping himself constantly.  Once, he bent over to reset a popper and those of us at the back of the range were looking right down the muzzle as it pointed at us.  I frequent this range a lot for Steel Challenge, but this was my first USPSA match with them and didn't know the guy.  When I mentioned it to the people I know to be involved with the range, they didn't seem to know the issue, and further stated, well that's so-and-so, be careful what you say cause he gets angry.  In discussion, I told one of the guys attached to the range a PCC can be slung, but the rules say the "sweeping rule" is still in effect even if the gun is unloaded and flagged.

 

The next week, the guy I talked to brought up the discussion again, claiming his club interpreted the rules another way, that sweeping while slung was not an issue.  I involved our range master at my local club who is VERY knowledgeable who trumped the whole conversation by saying the USPSA removed the ability to carry around a PCC slung altogether.  I did not know this and have been trying to find the change, but like I said, it may just be that it was removed, making it no longer legal.  I have no question of his knowledge, but does anyone know where to find something written?  Any help would be great, as I am trying to help the person with something in writing to take back to the other club to make them understand.

 

Off the top of my head, without rule number references, I think a couple rules are involved.  The appendix for PCC still says slung=yes.  The rules for PCC while discussing bagging/unbagging state even while flagged and unloaded, sweeping yourself or another is still a DQ.  However the rules say, regarding a handgun and therefore by proxy PCC, sweeping of the lower extremities is allowed while holstered and the "best practices" says a flagged PCC is the same as a holstered handgun.  But the best practices are not rules.  My discussion with our range master was cut short, but I believe he was making reference to the latest rules for Area and level II matches who have all specified PCCs will be carried from stage to stage bagged.  I know what is right and wrong, but being able to point to a rule would seem difficult, for me at least, right now.

 

Thanks for any help.  

Edited September 6, 2017 by Hammer002

[jcc7x7]

Uspsa web site may have some updates under nroi

[Kraj]

I don't see any new rules posted. But I wouldn't be surprised if some are in the works. I don't see any reason why you would need a sling at a match, and if they were not allowed at a later date to stop problems like this I wouldnt be surprised. 

 

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is Inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, Kraj said:

I don't see any new rules posted. But I wouldn't be surprised if some are in the works. I don't see any reason why you would need a sling at a match, and if they were not allowed at a later date to stop problems like this I wouldnt be surprised. 

 

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is Inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer

 

2 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

Uspsa web site may have some updates under nroi

 

 

Well, I went ahead and made a log in for the uspsa forum and there has been lengthy discussion of this exact topic.  Apparently there is a draft version of the new multigun rules being reviewed with the following that is expected to make its way into handgun rules as well:

 

 

10.5.4.3. Sweeping any person with the muzzle of any firearm, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted, at any time during the match.

 

This is not a rule in this form as of yet, but I think where we are going.  The PCC 10.5.2.1 is what I quoted as well, however there are rules that, admittedly by Troy, contradict this issue.  So, I guess its in a bit of limbo right now with an expectation for people to use common sense.  I have, however, read some of the nationals and other matches matchbooks that are specifying gun handling.

　

　

[jcc7x7]

Lots of ranges use the "local" rules. I bag it between stages.

All you have to do is ask the round or md to have people stop sweeping you.  If they don't do anything leave.

[Mhall]

https://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2017/PCCAddendum_rev452017.pdf

 

"PCC must be carried reasonably vertical, muzzle up or muzzle down."

Edited September 7, 2017 by Mhall

[JAFO]

When slung, "reasonably vertical" is the rule:

 

PCC 5.2.1.3 Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

 

Perhaps those who thought it wasn't a problem are trying to apply the rule regarding mobile racks/carriers:

 

PCC 5.2.1.4 Pistol caliber carbines may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used.

The above rule has it's own detractors who believe the sweeping rule should be in effect when someone is moving a mobile carrier around.

 

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer.

 

I don't really see a problem with the baby stroller-type carriers that hold the gun at a downward angle.  But I know a shooter who made his 3-gun cart by attaching ATV gun holders to the sides of a garden cart, which results in his flagged shotgun and rifle being carted horizontally.  No one really likes having muzzles pointing at you when moving from one stage to another.

[Hammer002]

3 hours ago, JAFO said:

When slung, "reasonably vertical" is the rule:

 

PCC 5.2.1.3 Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

 

Perhaps those who thought it wasn't a problem are trying to apply the rule regarding mobile racks/carriers:

 

PCC 5.2.1.4 Pistol caliber carbines may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used.

The above rule has it's own detractors who believe the sweeping rule should be in effect when someone is moving a mobile carrier around.

 

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer.

 

I don't really see a problem with the baby stroller-type carriers that hold the gun at a downward angle.  But I know a shooter who made his 3-gun cart by attaching ATV gun holders to the sides of a garden cart, which results in his flagged shotgun and rifle being carted horizontally.  No one really likes having muzzles pointing at you when moving from one stage to another.

 

In my researching this, I have come across a lot info on the USPSA NROI forum.  Troy himself has voiced in a few times as well.  He admits the rules are difficult at the moment to interpret and encourages everyone to be safe until what's written is finalized.  It would seem the slung rifle may be leaving, but is still legal.  Our range has said no for their property.  

 

Interesting input from Troy on the carts/strollers.  First, he interprets the carts to be the same as a case.  When on the cart and flagged = flagged and cased.  He further says placing and removing from the cart is the same as casing and should be done at a berm, same as rule 10.5.2.1.  He went on to say once removed from the case or cart, is when the other rules take effect such as sweeping and held vertical.  What I found interesting is he also mentioned sweeping cannot be considered to have occurred while bagged or carted, EVER.  New rules are in the works apparently.

 

Regarding my initial concern with the guy being RO with a slung PCC - no rule says he cant and interpretation says the gun is inert so long as flagged as far as sweeping his own lower extremities, of which I did take issue with.  However, if he sweeps the competitor or anyone else, that's a no no.  Finally, as for bending over resetting a popper and causing the PCC to point rearward, no one disagrees that's a DQ.  Overall, I'll just point and call bad form and dislike the fact behavior like this makes the PCC harder to swallow by those already uncomfortable with it.

[bret]

On 9/6/2017 at 2:57 AM, Hammer002 said:

I recently heard there have been some changes regarding PCC that might have got by me and I'm trying to find them.  Possibly their omission alone is my answer, but there was recently a situation leading to discussion leading to my involvement and now further research. 

 

Was at a local USPSA match with a guy walking around with his SBR PCC flagged and slung.  He was acting as the RO for another squad ours was waiting on when I noticed he was sweeping himself constantly.  Once, he bent over to reset a popper and those of us at the back of the range were looking right down the muzzle as it pointed at us.  I frequent this range a lot for Steel Challenge, but this was my first USPSA match with them and didn't know the guy.  When I mentioned it to the people I know to be involved with the range, they didn't seem to know the issue, and further stated, well that's so-and-so, be careful what you say cause he gets angry.  In discussion, I told one of the guys attached to the range a PCC can be slung, but the rules say the "sweeping rule" is still in effect even if the gun is unloaded and flagged.

 

The next week, the guy I talked to brought up the discussion again, claiming his club interpreted the rules another way, that sweeping while slung was not an issue.  I involved our range master at my local club who is VERY knowledgeable who trumped the whole conversation by saying the USPSA removed the ability to carry around a PCC slung altogether.  I did not know this and have been trying to find the change, but like I said, it may just be that it was removed, making it no longer legal.  I have no question of his knowledge, but does anyone know where to find something written?  Any help would be great, as I am trying to help the person with something in writing to take back to the other club to make them understand.

 

Off the top of my head, without rule number references, I think a couple rules are involved.  The appendix for PCC still says slung=yes.  The rules for PCC while discussing bagging/unbagging state even while flagged and unloaded, sweeping yourself or another is still a DQ.  However the rules say, regarding a handgun and therefore by proxy PCC, sweeping of the lower extremities is allowed while holstered and the "best practices" says a flagged PCC is the same as a holstered handgun.  But the best practices are not rules.  My discussion with our range master was cut short, but I believe he was making reference to the latest rules for Area and level II matches who have all specified PCCs will be carried from stage to stage bagged.  I know what is right and wrong, but being able to point to a rule would seem difficult, for me at least, right now.

 

Thanks for any help.  

It is a DQ Sweeping 10.5.5.

A flagged PCC Is not the same as a holstered handgun, that was a bad analogy used by Troy on the PCC Best Practices and that is not a rule or an interpretation.

Clubs can't make up their own rules if they are a USPSA Affiliated club.
 

3.3 Applicability of Rules:
 

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ.

[bret]

23 hours ago, Mhall said:

https://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2017/PCCAddendum_rev452017.pdf

 

PCC must be carried reasonably vertical, muzzle up or muzzle down. The fact that it is slung doesn't preclude it from being carried vertically. 

 

Flagged gun is treated as a holstered pistol, in the context of sweeping the OWNERS lower extremities. If the shooter is sweeping any other person, it is a DQ, regardless of a flag. 

 

Sounds like this guy really wants to show everyone that he has an SBR. He probably has a short barreled something else too...

What rule says that a PCC with a chamber flag is the same as a holstered pistol?

 

[Mhall]

Just now, bret said:

What rule says that a PCC with a chamber flag is the same as a holstered pistol?

 

Don't think it is a rule, just what Troy told me when I asked about sweeping feet. 

[bret]

Just now, Mhall said:

Don't think it is a rule, just what Troy told me when I asked about sweeping feet. 

If you sweep your feet, it is a DQ.

Troy can give his opinion but it is just an opinion until an official ruling has been made.

[Mhall]

1 minute ago, bret said:

If you sweep your feet, it is a DQ.

Troy can give his opinion but it is just an opinion until an official ruling has been made.

Agreed, but he wasn't going to DQ anyone for sweeping their feet if it was flagged. 

[bret]

Just now, Mhall said:

Agreed, but he wasn't going to DQ anyone for sweeping their feet if it was flagged. 

He needs to follow USPSA rules, if not then he shouldn't be the RM or RO.

If that is how USPSA Decides to handle PCC they need to follow their own rules and put it in the rules, instead of making shit up as you go along.


Troy helped write the rules for PCC, and nowhere in the rules does it say sweeping your lower extremities with a flagged PCC is not a DQ or the same as a holstered pistol, in the Best Practices he wrote (which is not a rule, or an interpretation) he used the flagged analogy, but it is not a rule or an exemption from the sweeping rules.



 

[Mhall]

1 minute ago, bret said:

He needs to follow USPSA rules, if not then he shouldn't be the RM or RO.

If that is how USPSA Decides to handle PCC they need to follow their own rules and put it in the rules, instead of making shit up as you go along.


Troy helped write the rules for PCC, and nowhere in the rules does it say sweeping your lower extremities with a flagged PCC is not a DQ or the same as a holstered pistol, in the Best Practices he wrote (which is not a rule, or an interpretation) he used the flagged analogy, but it is not a rule or an exemption from the sweeping rules.



 

Agreed all around. 

 

Thats just what he said. To me. At Nationals. 

 

 

[Sarge]

The USPSA hierarchy want PCC so damn bad it's almost funny. It seems like anything we say against it gets countered with made up stuff. 

  But as far as the original post, I have seen or heard nothing that took away slinging PCC. Slinging SHOULD NOT be allowed but it still is as far as I know.

[OPENB]

Perfect example of us being our own worse enemy. Guys like that RO will ruin it for the rest of us. Please, PCC shooters, get a bag or cart, and loose the slings. They serve no purpose in USPSA, and should be specifically banned in the rule revision.  A cheap bag is cheaper than that tacticool sling. 

[mreed911]

11 hours ago, OPENB said:

Please, PCC shooters, get a bag or cart, and loose the slings.

 

A loose sling is more likely to end up sweeping someone.  Maybe you meant tighten, so they reduce movement?

[teros135]

14 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

A loose sling is more likely to end up sweeping someone.  Maybe you meant tighten, so they reduce movement?

 

I think he may have meant "lose the slings", as in don't use them. Probably a good idea.

[Hammer002]

14 hours ago, bret said:

It is a DQ Sweeping 10.5.5.

A flagged PCC Is not the same as a holstered handgun, that was a bad analogy used by Troy on the PCC Best Practices and that is not a rule or an interpretation.

Clubs can't make up their own rules if they are a USPSA Affiliated club.
 

3.3 Applicability of Rules:
 

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ.

 

 

14 hours ago, bret said:

If you sweep your feet, it is a DQ.

Troy can give his opinion but it is just an opinion until an official ruling has been made.

 

I think you have missed the complexity of the situation, Bret.  The burden is on the RO to show a ruling for a DQ.  Not the other way around.  So, as you have thrown it out there several times now, what rule are you going to log for each of the DQs you have mentioned?  10.5.5 is specific to during a course of fire, not just walking around.  As a matter of fact, 10.5.5.1 makes it more complicated with specifically saying sweeping of lower extremities is not a DQ and the rules state holstered and handgun apply the same to PCC unless otherwise noted.

 

The best practices, though not rules, are in fact interpretations and given standards by the uspsa, so they are a part of decision making.  It's not that I disagree with you, but the conversation at hand was the problem is there is no rule to govern the sweeping as discussed.  While on the USPSA rules forum, where this has been and is being discussed A LOT, Troy is very clear in that a flagged PCC after having been properly removed from a case or cart, is then inert as to ones own lower extremities.  Sweeping still applies if the PCC becomes other than reasonably vertical or sweeps another person.  And as far as his opinions, I'm pretty sure if there isn't a rule for it, he's the one we are going to for interpretation until something formal is released, which he says is coming.  I don't like it either, but we don't get to tell someone they are DQed without a specific rule, where there simply isn't one for PCC in this particular area regarding the sling.  And if we are DQing people, we ought to be in line with the USPSA and their interpretations of the situations.  I want it to be there too, but it's not.  Not yet.

 

Lastly, the safety rules of the range always take priority and they can deem if the rules can safely be followed at their facility.  Hell, just look up the nationals and area matches that are specifying all rifles must be cased.  

[Barry95]

27 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

 

I think you have missed the complexity of the situation, Bret.  The burden is on the RO to show a ruling for a DQ.  Not the other way around.  So, as you have thrown it out there several times now, what rule are you going to log for each of the DQs you have mentioned?  10.5.5 is specific to during a course of fire, not just walking around.  As a matter of fact, 10.5.5.1 makes it more complicated with specifically saying sweeping of lower extremities is not a DQ and the rules state holstered and handgun apply the same to PCC unless otherwise noted.

 

The best practices, though not rules, are in fact interpretations and given standards by the uspsa, so they are a part of decision making.  It's not that I disagree with you, but the conversation at hand was the problem is there is no rule to govern the sweeping as discussed.  While on the USPSA rules forum, where this has been and is being discussed A LOT, Troy is very clear in that a flagged PCC after having been properly removed from a case or cart, is then inert as to ones own lower extremities.  Sweeping still applies if the PCC becomes other than reasonably vertical or sweeps another person.  And as far as his opinions, I'm pretty sure if there isn't a rule for it, he's the one we are going to for interpretation until something formal is released, which he says is coming.  I don't like it either, but we don't get to tell someone they are DQed without a specific rule, where there simply isn't one for PCC in this particular area regarding the sling.  And if we are DQing people, we ought to be in line with the USPSA and their interpretations of the situations.  I want it to be there too, but it's not.  Not yet.

 

Lastly, the safety rules of the range always take priority and they can deem if the rules can safely be followed at their facility.  Hell, just look up the nationals and area matches that are specifying all rifles must be cased.  

Best Practices are not rules or rulings.

Sweeping 10.5.5 would be the DQ if you swept your feet or any part of your body or anyone else with a PCC even if it is Flagged.

Sweeping...................... Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body.

Optic Nationals did not require rifles to be cased and this year was the 1st PCC Nationals I am aware of.

Sweeping your feet with a flagged PCC is a DQ.

10.5.5.1 does not apply to PCC, how do you holster or draw a PCC?

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

If a person is DQ'd they can arbitrate it and they would have to show a rule saying what they did was allowed, no rule says you can sweep your feet, or anyone with a flagged PCC.
 

[Hammer002]

Nevermind. Relevant discussion found elsewhere.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Hammer002

[gerritm]

Coming from a 3-gun background & USPSA, so not to start anything, but what is the difference if a rifle is slung and flagged and the shooter bends over and a pistol that is holstered and is sweeping themselves and the people behind him when bending over? Cased and walking with it sweeping all? I see holstered pistols in all kinds of different positions sweeping legs, body parts, and other shooters.

 

 

Key for both of these actions is holstered or flagged. You have to have a definition of safe. A holstered pistol is considered safe whether it is sweeping the shooters body parts or others. A flagged rifle is considered safe. Need to define safe. Only talking about being slung, not careless gun handling or sweeping when casing or uncasing, sling or un-slinging. All should be done pointed into a berm or safe area. You should not be able to handle a rifle anymore than you can handle a pistol.

 

Even in 3gun unsafe/careless gun handling is grounds for a DQ as it should be.

 

In a 3-gun COF it is not unusual to carry a rifle slung & safe with no flag. Much of that causes sweeping of lower parts and when bringing the rifle into play you will sweep the RO and anyone behind you, but that is still considered safe. Part of the game.

 

 

 

gerritm

 

[bret]

37 minutes ago, gerritm said:

Coming from a 3-gun background & USPSA, so not to start anything, but what is the difference if a rifle is slung and flagged and the shooter bends over and a pistol that is holstered and is sweeping themselves and the people behind him when bending over? Cased and walking with it sweeping all? I see holstered pistols in all kinds of different positions sweeping legs, body parts, and other shooters.

 

 

Key for both of these actions is holstered or flagged. You have to have a definition of safe. A holstered pistol is considered safe whether it is sweeping the shooters body parts or others. A flagged rifle is considered safe. Need to define safe. Only talking about being slung, not careless gun handling or sweeping when casing or uncasing, sling or un-slinging. All should be done pointed into a berm or safe area. You should not be able to handle a rifle anymore than you can handle a pistol.

 

Even in 3gun unsafe/careless gun handling is grounds for a DQ as it should be.

 

In a 3-gun COF it is not unusual to carry a rifle slung & safe with no flag. Much of that causes sweeping of lower parts and when bringing the rifle into play you will sweep the RO and anyone behind you, but that is still considered safe. Part of the game.

 

 

 

gerritm

 

3 gunner's are the worst for safe gun handling IME.

USPSA handgun Rules, Addendum's and NROI Rulings are what matters, not analogies of how things are done elsewhere.

Sweeping people is not part of the game and it is not safe.

[Sarge]

33 minutes ago, gerritm said:

 

A flagged rifle is considered safe. Need to define safe. Only talking about being slung, not careless gun handling or sweeping when casing or uncasing, sling or un-slinging. All should be done pointed into a berm or safe area. 

 

I don't get it. You want to equate a flagged rifle to a holstered pistol. Yet, you only think a flagged rifle is safe when slung and can point wherever. But if not slung it's unsafe to point wherever? If flagged rifles are as safe as a holstered pistols why can't they just be handled any which way?