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CZC 140mm base pads failed the magazine gauge!!


Superpipe9

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I was recently at the uspsa area 8 match and on Friday while I was walking stages I ran into a guy shooting a TSO and he was upset because he just got bumped to open because his mags with the CZC base pads did not fit the gauge. This encouraged me to check my own since I never had before. 3 of the 4 that I had failed as well. After having them checked by the match staff with the EGW gauge I had them checked with a DAA gauge that a vendor had with the same results. At this point several people were trying to help and come up with a solution. James with Atlas gunworks filed down the back corners of one mag in a effort to get them to clear. He stopped at a point and didn't want to take any more off, saying he was worried I might have feed issues. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to get the mag to pass the gauge. After this several people looked at the mags and it was determined that the 3 that failed had base pads that were longer and they had play in them where they slide on the magazine tube causing the COAL to be even longer then the one that did pass. I was basically told by CZC that it was what it was and they would reprogram the machine to fix this in the future but for the guys that got to shoot open and the rest of my matches, we are screwed. I basically have $300 of fairly new practice mags or open mags. Has anyone else experienced any issues like this and if so what did you do to correct it. 

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I know it's after the fact but if you are a serious competitor you should have a scale, a box and a mag gauge. All of these items together are less than the cost of one magazine/basepad/spring combo. And can keep you out of trouble in multiple divisions.

 

The flange on the bottom of the mag tube can bend over time, lengthening the overall length as the basepad will "move" farther away. And sometimes yeah, you gotta bend them a little and you've got to file off the back of the feed lips.

 

I'm sorry you got caught out but I'm more sorry that everyone in a magazine capacity length division doesn't have a $35 piece of equipment. This is where I got mine: https://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/EGW-USPSA-Official-Magazine-Gauge-P334.aspx

Edited by rowdyb
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6 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I know it's after the fact but if you are a serious competitor you should have a scale, a box and a mag gauge. All of these items together are less than the cost of one magazine/basepad/spring combo.

 

The flange on the bottom of the mag tube can bend over time, lengthening the overall length as the basepad will "move" farther away. And sometimes yeah, you gotta bend them a little and you've got to file off the back of the feed lips.

 

I'm sorry you got caught out but I'm more sorry that everyone in a magazine capacity length division doesn't have a $35 piece of equipment. This is where I got mine: https://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/EGW-USPSA-Official-Magazine-Gauge-P334.aspx

Thanks for the advice.   This  is especially true about the box for single stack also.  Just because its a 1911 doesn't mean its legal in competition.  No one wants to get bumped to open, or go home. 

 

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2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

I know it's after the fact but if you are a serious competitor you should have a scale, a box and a mag gauge. All of these items together are less than the cost of one magazine/basepad/spring combo. And can keep you out of trouble in multiple divisions.

 

The flange on the bottom of the mag tube can bend over time, lengthening the overall length as the basepad will "move" farther away. And sometimes yeah, you gotta bend them a little and you've got to file off the back of the feed lips.

 

I'm sorry you got caught out but I'm more sorry that everyone in a magazine capacity length division doesn't have a $35 piece of equipment. This is where I got mine: https://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/EGW-USPSA-Official-Magazine-Gauge-P334.aspx

I just started shooting limited a couple months ago and this was the 2nd major. I am ordering a mag gauge from EGW and will be checking myself from now on. I got lucky and checked my mags at area 8 before I shot and had a buddy lend me his mags which passed for the next day of shooting. Do you use the CZC base pad?

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10 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

the magazine tubes are the greater variable in the equation, not the basepads.

In my case the base pads were out of spec. CZC is going to reprogram the cnc for next go around but that doesn't help anyone that has the  longer pads right now. The pads I have that didn't pass a longer and have a lot more play in them than the 1 that did pass. For as much money as I spend on them you would think they would get it right or give me my money back, but nope. I just have $300 in practice mags now. 

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This is racing. People are always trying to take their equipment to the edge for competitive advantage....   so when they made the allowable mag length 141.5mm to allow for variations in basepads etc for "140mm" mags, every manufacturer tooled up to make 141.499999 mag bases....  but like the Dawson S.N.L. they are Sometimes Not Legal. Its up to the competitor to verify their equipment makes specs, and if not, correct it. These over length mags can be corrected by shaving the bottom of the base pads (I know, they won't be as pretty anymore) or file the back of the feed lips. Or both. If they won't make the gauge after that, time for new basepads. 

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1 hour ago, sfinney said:

This is racing. People are always trying to take their equipment to the edge for competitive advantage....   so when they made the allowable mag length 141.5mm to allow for variations in basepads etc for "140mm" mags, every manufacturer tooled up to make 141.499999 mag bases....  but like the Dawson S.N.L. they are Sometimes Not Legal. Its up to the competitor to verify their equipment makes specs, and if not, correct it. These over length mags can be corrected by shaving the bottom of the base pads (I know, they won't be as pretty anymore) or file the back of the feed lips. Or both. If they won't make the gauge after that, time for new basepads. 

So a company make and sales a product that does not work for  it's intended use and you think that's ok? It's pretty simple to measure mags, take the longest length and make the base pad off of this. I can almost get 22 in my mags, unfortunately they don't fit the gauge like they should. So there is plenty of room to still have 21 and make them fit the gauge. So by your way of thinking it's ok to spend $100 on a mag set up from a company and have to do butcher the brand new stuff you just bought.  How about the said company actually make a product that works! 

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Now imagine buying a $130 mag for your 2011 that needs you to purchase a $99 tuning kit before it will run reliably in your gun. But yeah, I've been shocked how trouble free my TS mags and base pads have been. (when I assemble them correctly)

 

Of my 6 TS mags with CZC base pads only 1 does not pass my gauge and it could in about 5 minutes of sanding the basepad. The other 5 were good to go right out of the box for passing the gauge.

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I guess I just don't share your outrage or disappointment as it's something a person can check on their own before they even get to the match as you know it's an item to be inspected and in what manner with what tool. Like Reagan said, trust but verify.

 

Your mags are not broken or worthless. You just need to bring them into compliance. Annoying, yes. But not an incurable disease.

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43 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I guess I just don't share your outrage or disappointment as it's something a person can check on their own before they even get to the match as you know it's an item to be inspected and in what manner with what tool. Like Reagan said, trust but verify.

 

Your mags are not broken or worthless. You just need to bring them into compliance. Annoying, yes. But not an incurable disease.

Unfortunately for me 3 of the 4 would not pass and even after having the guys at Atlas gun works file on the feed lips to the point that he stopped because he was worried about feeding issues, it still wouldn't pass the gauge. The 3 that failed are longer (basepad) and the slot is wider causing the COAL to be longer. To me there is a obvious problem. Companies like this have feed people crap for so long that you think it's normal. Regardless I appreciate the feedback even if I don't agree with some of it. Thanks. 

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Well hopefully a better solution does come along, because I do totally agree that none of the TS basepads seem to be ones that check all the boxes in a good way. There is something I dislike about each and every one of them. I hope you get some resolution as "WTH?!?!" moments are never fun when it comes to equipment.

 

Do you know anyone with a mill who can take say 0.10" off of them all? ( I had to do that to some CO mags.....) They wouldn't have the same finish any more but they'd fit the gauge. If you don't have a shop around you who can take them down, I know someone who does.

Edited by rowdyb
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Unfortunately for me 3 of the 4 would not pass and even after having the guys at Atlas gun works file on the feed lips to the point that he stopped because he was worried about feeding issues, it still wouldn't pass the gauge. The 3 that failed are longer (basepad) and the slot is wider causing the COAL to be longer. To me there is a obvious problem. Companies like this have feed people crap for so long that you think it's normal. Regardless I appreciate the feedback even if I don't agree with some of it. Thanks. 

What are lengths of the four magazines sans base pads and measured at the same place as the rules prescribe? What are the heights of the 4 base pads. Measured from the bottom of the pad to the mounting grooves, what are the heights?

Ensuring magazines are rules compliment is no different than equipment positioning or safe gun handling -- all are shooter responsibility. That said, I also think you have a valid beef if you very sold a defective product. For example, all mag tubes are the same length, then the problem is most likely in the base pads. Thought you said, seller agreed there was a manufacturing issue. If so, they should make the sale right. If not, is it too late to dispute the cc charge(s) for the product?


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I guess I just don't share your outrage or disappointment as it's something a person can check on their own before they even get to the match as you know it's an item to be inspected and in what manner with what tool. Like Reagan said, trust but verify.
 
Your mags are not broken or worthless. You just need to bring them into compliance. Annoying, yes. But not an incurable disease.

You're spot on on most, if not all, your comments on this topic. We are responsible for ensuring the equipment we bring to a match is rules compliant. Match staff does the verification and applies appropriate penalty if a shooter is not. No different than equipment positioning, gun malfunction, procedurals, or DQs. Shooter is responsible.

P. S. Not saying this is the case here, but a general observation... Accepting responsibility for one's action or inaction and correcting things is .... well let's say a dying personal trait.


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1 hour ago, GeneBray said:


You're spot on on most, if not all, your comments on this topic. We are responsible for ensuring the equipment we bring to a match is rules compliant. Match staff does the verification and applies appropriate penalty if a shooter is not. No different than equipment positioning, gun malfunction, procedurals, or DQs. Shooter is responsible.

P. S. Not saying this is the case here, but a general observation... Accepting responsibility for one's action or inaction and correcting things is .... well let's say a dying personal trait.


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Well, if their response is "too bad" then I won't give them my money. I bet if I walked into SP and showed them my mag they'd do their best to make sure it is correct. 

Edited by 858
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Unfortunately buying your own gauge is not a perfect solution as these mag gauges all have their own tolerances. Passing in your basement does not mean you will pass at the match with the gauge they are using. That is one of the reasons I let George Jones test mine ahead of time. He was the match official for the Mid Atlantic Sectionals and brought the official match gauge to three or four local matches the month before and offered to check anyone's mags with the gauge that would be used at the match.

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