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1 hour ago, 1981Shooter said:

I'm not opposed to getting CO guns into a division somewhere at all.  I have several Glocks with RMR's on them, including my EDC G19.  I've never used them in 3 gun because it puts me in Open and I don't feel I'd be competitive in that division with my rifle and shotgun.  I also don't feel that it would give me much of an advantage in TacOps or Limited either though, with the exception of longer pistol shots.

 

With that said, I see a lot of irony in the people saying, "Carry Optics pistols shouldn't be in the Tactical Optics division, they should be in a more Tactical division that allows optics".  If anything, I think CO pistols should be rolled in TO.  I guarantee that the top shooters will still smoke me with iron sight pistols, but allowing them in a class where someone new could be somewhat competitive has the probability of getting more people into the sport.

 

What's the real difference between Limited and TO in most rule sets anyways?  It's just a dot vs a scope on the rifle and sometimes the shotgun is limited to holding a max of 8+1.  No difference between the pistols at all, so why not allow a tactical style pistol optic in the TACTICAL OPTICS division.  Although that might lead to people arguing for shotgun optics in TO as well, which will make some heads explode.  It's really funny how polarizing this topic has been, but you're always going to have people that are extremely opposed to change of any type.  All sports have to evolve with the times or they become stagnant and lose favor.  I'm not saying that not adopting CO will make that happen to 3 gun, but don't just draw a line in the sand and refuse to ever move.  Eventually the tide will win.

Haha - funny you said the same thing I did at the same time I was typing my response.  You just said it better and more concisely than I did :) 

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VERY few matches design stages that give an Open shooter any advantage, shotgun is the only gun that may give an Open guy an advantage.

If your not worried about winning, WHY aren't you shooting your CO gun in Open?

 

I don't think anybody is 100% against a CO division, I just don't see more than 3-5 shooters in most matches.

CO is no where near the numbers that "Tac Ops" was when that division was created. When it gets close, I'm sure there will be a division.

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46 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

VERY few matches design stages that give an Open shooter any advantage, shotgun is the only gun that may give an Open guy an advantage.

If your not worried about winning, WHY aren't you shooting your CO gun in Open?

I'm always worried about winning, so I guess I need to just shoot my CO in Open and see what happens.  Change my class to Open for MO 3Gun!  (just kidding, please don't :D)

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Its funny that most of those declaring "Just shoot open" are themselves open shooters. Looking thru the results from the last few months at our club it seems open is a dying division. Or at least a struggling one. Perhaps its a more emotional response than practical. PCC and CO is growing rapidly in popularity. Something will change in the game with respect to CO, its just a matter of time. It doesn't need to be another division, nor does it need to be "Just shoot open". I still feel Tac-Optics is the best place for it. A minor rules adjustment is all that would be required. The only thing that needs to be "Open" is our minds.

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If you allow CO limited to 10 rounds into TO most existing shooters will not be "forced" to switch.

 

Loosing 10-13 rounds to gain an optic on the pistol is not a choice most would choose. 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Religious Shooter said:

If you allow CO limited to 10 rounds into TO most existing shooters will not be "forced" to switch.

 

Loosing 10-13 rounds to gain an optic on the pistol is not a choice most would choose. 

 

 

 

Im not sure limiting magazines to 10 rounds would be fair to anyone needing or wanting to shoot a carry optic pistol in 3-gun. If theres such a perceived disparity between a CO pistol and a limited pistol, perhaps a compromise could be made in the definition of a carry optic pistol. Such as, designating slide mounted optics on striker fired pistols only, everybody knows 2011's are a big advantage over Glocks, M&P's etc. LOL. Or perhaps an adjustment to scoring. All Cary optics, regardless of caliber score minor, etc. Theres several ways to allow it fairly. It just will take people with an open mind to come up with a reasonable solution.

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4 hours ago, mpeltier said:

All Cary optics, regardless of caliber score minor, etc.

Major/minor scoring in 3 Gun!?!?!  Let's not get too crazy here...

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1 hour ago, 1981Shooter said:

Major/minor scoring in 3 Gun!?!?!  Let's not get too crazy here...

 

Not crazy at all. We use such scoring at our matches. Its supposedly to even things out for the guys shooting 308/45. But theres literally nobody shooting major at our 3-gun matches. For us it would be easy to adopt Major scoring for all Tac-optic shooters and score minor with a CO pistol. And I'm not saying its the answer, but were I the match director it would be worth a try to see if it works. I may just discuss this with our match director next time I see him.

Edited by mpeltier

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8 hours ago, mpeltier said:

Its funny that most of those declaring "Just shoot open" are themselves open shooters. Looking thru the results from the last few months at our club it seems open is a dying division. Or at least a struggling one. Perhaps its a more emotional response than practical. PCC and CO is growing rapidly in popularity. Something will change in the game with respect to CO, its just a matter of time. It doesn't need to be another division, nor does it need to be "Just shoot open". I still feel Tac-Optics is the best place for it. A minor rules adjustment is all that would be required. The only thing that needs to be "Open" is our minds.

the reason Open shooters are saying  "just shoot open" is everybody is pushing to get as close to open without going open. a few examples

13-20 rnd tubes on the SG, so they only load right after the buzzer

D-60 drums 

tri coupled mags, to get around bipod restrictions

wings or other mag base additions - see above

Starting with SG shells in the mag well/attached at the magwell

tac sack or other muzzle supporting devices claiming they,  "are not muzzle supporting devices".  ie: bipods

 

I could go on

The pistol is the only thing left that hasn't been pushed to non TO status.

 

IMO one of the reasons PCC is popular with TO shooters is it's an open "pistol"

I would rather shoot my open 2011 than a PCC, but that's not allowed in PCC matches, but it Should be in 3 gun . . . .

 

I've been involved in racing of some sort for 20+ years,  the envelope always gets pushed, but you have to have hard and fast rules delineating the divisions otherwise you end up with everybody with the $$ with setups that rival the "top" class division.

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New 3 gun division, or somebody may have already tried it, but I will throw it out there:

 

Pistol:

Carry ops style pistol (either da/sa/striker or also allow 2011s I don't care)

Mags either fit in stock grip, or 140s.  140s probably easier to deal with

Slide ride dot

NO comps

Frame mods, magwells, etc ok

 

Rifle:

Standard mags only (ie 30 rounders for ARs,  etc) 

No comps

Scopes allowed, maybe reddots only or 1-4 or 1-6 max, not positive

No bipods

 

Shotgun

Maybe pump only, but definitely tube fed only

No speed loaders

no comps

maybe allow a dot?

Cap barrel length at 22ish or 26ish and tube cant go past the end of the barrel

 

There are a few ideas, feel free to pick them apart or put out your ideas and adjust them.  My idea was  to make them different enough from Tacops and open to make it its own thing.  I just threw it out there for fun

 

 

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A lot of people shoot Glocks in TI/TO.   So looking to have.. "designating slide mounted optics on striker fired pistols only, everybody knows 2011's are a big advantage over Glocks, M&P's etc."  isn't going to work.

 

And in any case CO is basically a Production pistol with a slide mounted optic with full cap mags.  Can't have a 2011 in CO to begin with.

 

 

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12 hours ago, RJH said:

New 3 gun division, or somebody may have already tried it, but I will throw it out there:

 

Pistol:

Carry ops style pistol (either da/sa/striker or also allow 2011s I don't care)

Mags either fit in stock grip, or 140s.  140s probably easier to deal with

Slide ride dot

NO comps

Frame mods, magwells, etc ok

 

Rifle:

Standard mags only (ie 30 rounders for ARs,  etc) 

No comps

Scopes allowed, maybe reddots only or 1-4 or 1-6 max, not positive

No bipods

 

Shotgun

Maybe pump only, but definitely tube fed only

No speed loaders

no comps

maybe allow a dot?

Cap barrel length at 22ish or 26ish and tube cant go past the end of the barrel

 

There are a few ideas, feel free to pick them apart or put out your ideas and adjust them.  My idea was  to make them different enough from Tacops and open to make it its own thing.  I just threw it out there for fun

 

 

Check out the description of "Stealth" Division in the following link.  I think you will find many similarities to your proposal

 

http://smm3gun.com/rules/

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2 hours ago, Rookie said:

Check out the description of "Stealth" Division in the following link.  I think you will find many similarities to your proposal

 

http://smm3gun.com/rules/

 

It looks like there are some similarities there.  I had heard of stealth division, but had not seen the rules, thanks for the link. 

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Practical 3-Gun.pdf Long time lurker of course - interested in divisions quite a bit myself. To the point that I decided to start writing various Outlaw match rules and divisions of my own. Writing them out really helps to find the flaws and I am sure there are still many but I've attached (not sure what that does so this is a test run) a pdf of the current 3-Gun version. It's meant to be an Outlaw match so some of it doesn't apply to the theme of this thread but the divisions I think do. I've been shooting a P09 with a red dot in open at my local club for a couple seasons now and it works out just fine for me at the club level but I don't think it's really viable for someone who is competitive at major matches.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ycuNhhoji1vyJtA30C7EKSJz7dtjBQ_J/view?usp=sharing

Practical 3-Gun.pdf

Edited by cityofthesouth

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8 hours ago, cityofthesouth said:

Practical 3-Gun.pdf Long time lurker of course - interested in divisions quite a bit myself. To the point that I decided to start writing various Outlaw match rules and divisions of my own. Writing them out really helps to find the flaws and I am sure there are still many but I've attached (not sure what that does so this is a test run) a pdf of the current 3-Gun version. It's meant to be an Outlaw match so some of it doesn't apply to the theme of this thread but the divisions I think do. I've been shooting a P09 with a red dot in open at my local club for a couple seasons now and it works out just fine for me at the club level but I don't think it's really viable for someone who is competitive at major matches.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ycuNhhoji1vyJtA30C7EKSJz7dtjBQ_J/view?usp=sharing

Practical 3-Gun.pdf

Silly. When you have some more free time there is this really cool thing called the wheel that you can try to reinvent.

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10 hours ago, cityofthesouth said:

Practical 3-Gun.pdf Long time lurker of course - interested in divisions quite a bit myself. To the point that I decided to start writing various Outlaw match rules and divisions of my own. Writing them out really helps to find the flaws and I am sure there are still many but I've attached (not sure what that does so this is a test run) a pdf of the current 3-Gun version. It's meant to be an Outlaw match so some of it doesn't apply to the theme of this thread but the divisions I think do. I've been shooting a P09 with a red dot in open at my local club for a couple seasons now and it works out just fine for me at the club level but I don't think it's really viable for someone who is competitive at major matches.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ycuNhhoji1vyJtA30C7EKSJz7dtjBQ_J/view?usp=sharing

Practical 3-Gun.pdf

Are these divisions meant to solve an existing problem or void in whats currently offered? 

Also who is going to enforce all of these new rules, specifically the ones regarding internal rifle parts like buffer weights and such. Most RO's don't have the time or bandwidth to micromanage peoples equipment and most new shooters have no clue what division their guns fit into, even with the very simple rules we currently have.

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22 hours ago, cityofthesouth said:

Practical 3-Gun.pdf Long time lurker of course - interested in divisions quite a bit myself. To the point that I decided to start writing various Outlaw match rules and divisions of my own. Writing them out really helps to find the flaws and I am sure there are still many but I've attached (not sure what that does so this is a test run) a pdf of the current 3-Gun version. It's meant to be an Outlaw match so some of it doesn't apply to the theme of this thread but the divisions I think do. I've been shooting a P09 with a red dot in open at my local club for a couple seasons now and it works out just fine for me at the club level but I don't think it's really viable for someone who is competitive at major matches.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ycuNhhoji1vyJtA30C7EKSJz7dtjBQ_J/view?usp=sharing

Practical 3-Gun.pdf

 

Tony has a point. Much of the previous criticism of IDPA was the hours long gun checks it took to shoot bigger matches. I can also say from shooting IDPA and NRA TPC that it is difficult at best to appease rule sets that are enforced with old scales or an inexperienced human enforcers. 

 

Some of the ideas you have are on interesting but the implementation would be problematic. Not that many of the ones now aren’t but I guess that is the innate problem of rule sets. 

 

I started this thread as I am seeing the advancement in what is “duty issue” that has occurred in recent years and how many of even novice or new shooting sports entrants have headed that advancement. That and my aging eyes I must admit. 

 

Keep up the thinking it only drives the sport and don’t be deterred by nay sayers whose first inclination is to act snarky. 

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On 7/6/2018 at 9:42 PM, TonytheTiger said:

Are these divisions meant to solve an existing problem or void in whats currently offered? 

Also who is going to enforce all of these new rules, specifically the ones regarding internal rifle parts like buffer weights and such. Most RO's don't have the time or bandwidth to micromanage peoples equipment and most new shooters have no clue what division their guns fit into, even with the very simple rules we currently have.

I dunno if it's meant to solve anything real, more like perceived problems in just one person's opinion. Smaller clubs in my area have tried different approaches at a "production" division but I agree, it would be bothersome to fiddle with at a real match. I think it sounds more complicated than it really is though - a standard carbine/rifle buffer and spring. I pictured it less as something to be enforced and more as a way to protect shooters in that division. Everything can and will be gamed, but I tried to make it difficult by making it defined. It's not as if anyone checks anyone's equipment at the club matches I've participated in anyway. A primary concern to me is clubs without a lot of money and shooters without a lot of money and specifically why I said it is an Outlaw concept, most of which can be ignored for the purposes of this thread. The goal is not to solve an existing problem or void anything, because I think each brand of multigun should carry on as it is if it's working, but just to have something else entirely. I don't see much reason to change or attempt to change USPSA Multigun or 3GN rules.

 

@USCSBarney Hey, just throwing it out there for something to talk about. It is just by coincidence that one of my divisions addresses slide-mounted red dots and that's about the only relevance here. I've been a member of a number of forums over the years and those snarky types are found in every single one. They're all the same, easy to ignore.

 

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Stealth Division fits the bill.  The only thing wrong with it is the name causing confusion with what it's about (people keep asking me if its low profile concealed carry style rigs or using suppressors).  The rules actually make the most sense in allowing what is currently tactically vogue.  Dimensional restrictions also make the most sense to push practical equipment development; make the most effective thing that fits in this amount of space.

 

Stealth-1.jpg

 

Stealth-2.jpg

Edited by SinistralRifleman

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The last thing 3 gun needs is more divisions with extremely minor differences in gear. UML had the first real "new" division with 2x4 that was truly distinct from any other division in a way that Dinosaur Heavy (pump/SS) was distinct from everything else. Unfortunately, I can't even count the number of divisions in UML now. The question that would be useful to ask for any "new" division would be, "Can I fill an annual 100 person match with people only shooting this 1 division?" He-Man did that. Near every 3 Gun match around has double that in Tac Optics. Open could easily do that. Pistols with slide mounted optics have been placed in Open because there's really nothing unique about shooting a division with pistol with a red dot compared to a division with a pistols with a red dot but without a comp. 

A box is something I hope to never see in 3 gun. While the "if it fits" guns of yester-Modified were marvels of engineering, I'm not sure a diluted pool of shooters in a niche division which may or may not make at a match is really going to push how guns are designed in the grand scheme of things. 

modifried.JPG

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8 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

The last thing 3 gun needs is more divisions with extremely minor differences in gear. UML had the first real "new" division with 2x4 that was truly distinct from any other division in a way that Dinosaur Heavy (pump/SS) was distinct from everything else. Unfortunately, I can't even count the number of divisions in UML now. The question that would be useful to ask for any "new" division would be, "Can I fill an annual 100 person match with people only shooting this 1 division?" He-Man did that. Near every 3 Gun match around has double that in Tac Optics. Open could easily do that. Pistols with slide mounted optics have been placed in Open because there's really nothing unique about shooting a division with pistol with a red dot compared to a division with a pistols with a red dot but without a comp. 

A box is something I hope to never see in 3 gun. While the "if it fits" guns of yester-Modified were marvels of engineering, I'm not sure a diluted pool of shooters in a niche division which may or may not make at a match is really going to push how guns are designed in the grand scheme of things. 

modifried.JPG

 

In stealth the slide must be parallel to the box.  

 

The rifle is an open division rifle limited to 30 round mags and bipod must remain on it for the whole match if used

 

Shotgun is limited to 23.5” mag tube and an optic is allowed.

 

That’s pretty different than any other division.  You gain optics and give up capacity.  Size restrictions also coincidentally make the guns more inline with what people are actually using at the cutting edge of the tactical world.  

 

 

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Not really...

 

It's just Open with mag restrictions. And I find the box thing totally rediculous.

 

And by the way, neither of the above pistols are legal, the slides are not truly parallel with the top.

(Unless the rules are even more bloated by saying something like "within 1/4in of being parallel...")

 

Agree with Dar, divisions need to be more distinct from one another, all the 1x2x3x4x6 stuff is just more reasons to get a participation trophy. Maybe one 2x4, but it's gone off the deep end.

 

Eta; oh yea. The hoops that have to be jumped thru by ROs and match staff to accommodate 2x4 in a 3gun match is crazy. Having to reset the stage in a different manner depending on division, wow... Shoot the stage like the it was designed with the guns you chose to bring. If you can't hit a 400 yd tgt with a pcc then take the FTE.

Edited by RiggerJJ

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4 hours ago, RiggerJJ said:

Not really...

 

It's just Open with mag restrictions. And I find the box thing totally rediculous.

 

And by the way, neither of the above pistols are legal, the slides are not truly parallel with the top.

(Unless the rules are even more bloated by saying something like "within 1/4in of being parallel...")

 

Agree with Dar, divisions need to be more distinct from one another, all the 1x2x3x4x6 stuff is just more reasons to get a participation trophy. Maybe one 2x4, but it's gone off the deep end.

 

Eta; oh yea. The hoops that have to be jumped thru by ROs and match staff to accommodate 2x4 in a 3gun match is crazy. Having to reset the stage in a different manner depending on division, wow... Shoot the stage like the it was designed with the guns you chose to bring. If you can't hit a 400 yd tgt with a pcc then take the FTE.

 

I am sensing you are not warming to the whole concept of CO in 3-Gun :roflol:

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18 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

I am sensing you are not warming to the whole concept of CO in 3-Gun :roflol:

I agree with JJ on this. I just don't see Stealth or "Open Lite" being different enough. Carry Optics is quite unique in USPSA with minor scoring and 23 round mags. Hell, it's actually fun to shoot that division. But even in Stealth are you not just splitting your pool of Open shooters locally? Maybe I'm wrong and it's the new hotness in a couple of years. 

2x4 on the other hand completely changes how a shooter approaches a stage. The PCC as a 4th gun can really open up super fun game plans. I really don't see how it changes a MD's job at all either. If there's clays on a stage I use a shotgun. If there's a rifle shot to 400 yards I use a rifle not a PCC. Hell I might even use a real rifle JJ. Tree-O-hate as they say nowadays right?  The only thing that gets boring is the ridiculous "must use 2 guns rule." Who knows, maybe that changes soon. If MD's want to force only 2 specific guns used they can write it into the WSB. Not my cup of tea, but some folks like IDPA-style multigun. 

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