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8 minutes ago, PatriotMRD said:

The sport as a whole and it's growth seem, to me, to be in pretty good shape. Just check out the increase in number of matches (club and major) over the last 3-5yrs. The way to grow in a long term and healthy way isn't through special accommodations for every different gear fetish or to make it easy for new shooters. It's organically with things like introducing and mentoring new shooters to the sport (young, old or in between). Growth for the sake of just growing can, very often, lead to disaster.

Well said.

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I see people complaining about using their Carry Optics in Open, rather than have a new division for this. Jerry Miculek shoots Open with an M&P set up for Carry Optics all the time. I've squadded with people that shot Open, and simply loaded their shotguns up to capacity, and used longer mags in their pistol. They shot the matches within the rules, and had a good time. Well, Jerry probably still won his division. :)

 

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The optic on the pistol really isn’t the competitive issue to me in 3 Gun. The original idea would be more of a hit to “Practical” division numbers. That division is mostly the introductory division on the club level and where people get into the sport. The do get “mentored” and if they stay in the sport generally purchase the equipment to transition to another division. I doubt a carry Optics type division would dilute the numbers in divisions at major matches. 

 

You are correct that there are more larger matches and I have noticed those matches have taken longer to fill up if they sell out at all. To be frank there is just a big an argument that there are too many large matches that are harming that market as a whole. The diluting off prize tables is more due to that issue than divisions. 

 

My my only interest in the issue is the huge growth of mini red dots on duty type Guns. Whether you consider them tactical wannabes or the evolution of shooting, my point is they are the future of the game. Put that with the several “old farts” the are going to carry Optics in USPSA to make their retirement budget go farther, I just think it is an untapped demographic that can keep the sport healthy and growing. 

 

Again not saying it has to be done but also think it could be a great addition especially at the club level. I still think one of the smartest things 3GN ever did was the 22 division. I only wish it was age limited (say 12 and under) with no requirements for shotgun. I still think we would have more kids out there shooting with us if we did. When I ran a club I fully admit to “bending” any divisional rule if it meant letting a kid play in the game. Never affected the outcome but did put a smile on several kids faces. A few of which are still in the game. 

Edited by USCSBarney
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While I don't care one way or the other, here is a thought; put them in limited and tweak the rules to allow 1 unmagnified optic on one gun.  In other words, you get one optic put it where you want and think it will do you the most good.

 

Also limiting capacity is dumb, in any division.

 

And there will end up being a division for carry ops eventually besides open.  Just like when I started they had to make a new division for all the crybabies who had to have a scope on their rifle, now that division is called tac-ops.  Now all the tac-ops people are being crybabies about someone not wanting to have to spend all the extra money to shoot open when all they want is a dot on their pistol, this is the definition of irony, since everyone wanted a scope on their rifle but didn't want to spend all that money on their other guns to shoot open....

 

Racing is a progressive sport, get used to it, or toughen up and shoot He-man

 

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Yes limiting rounds is dumb, and that is not a troll.  If some one wants to run a drum, I don't care.  There ends up being a point of diminishing returns, and I am for letting shooters figure that out for themselves

 

By the  lack of competitors  that shoot He-Man/Heavy at all matches other than He-Man nationals, it would appear that most shooters think He-Man is dumb, so draw your own conclusions.

 

 

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Counting rounds is out. ROs at three gun matches work their asses off as is. Now in the CO snowflake division you want to limit rounds? Mmmm.... no. Mag length makes sense... round count is more of a pain in the ass, but so is adding another division. 

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15 minutes ago, 3gunDQ said:

Counting rounds is out. ROs at three gun matches work their asses off as is. Now in the CO snowflake division you want to limit rounds? Mmmm.... no. Mag length makes sense... round count is more of a pain in the ass, but so is adding another division. 

 

I am not being a smart ass here, as I said I don't really care one way or another, but is Tacops a snowflake division since it was born out of shooters wanting to use optics on their rifle but not have to shoot in open?  I see a lot of hypocrisy if it is not.  Eventually there will be a carryops division in 3 gun, I was resistant to it in USPSA, but it is slowly growing and the sky hasn't fallen, so I guess it will be fine

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Allowing a dot in Tac is a BAD idea at this point, maybe later when more have them

Allowing a 1x dot in irons HAS killed "irons" locally , initially it was done to keep irons entries up. And it did that for a while, now(at least in our monthly's) true Irons is dead and buried. If I remember correctly only 1 last year in all our local matches, I think 3-4 started, but switched to a dot. This year none, that I know of(they have switched to Tac), good chance Irons will go the way of HM.

 

In our Major - paid entries so far - breakdown is, Irons has a good showing, not sure how many will be true IRONS

Division Count
Tactical Optics 106
Tactical Irons 23
Open 24
Heavy Optics 6
Heavy Irons 2

 

Our Mid West 3 Gun Series has 3 "irons" at least 2 are shooting a dot, not 100% sure of 3rd.

 

Allowing a dot in Tac will force everyone who wants to be competitive to go there as well. BAD for new shooters.

In the end you will lose more shooters than you gain. 

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9 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I am not being a smart ass here, as I said I don't really care one way or another, but is Tacops a snowflake division since it was born out of shooters wanting to use optics on their rifle but not have to shoot in open?  I see a lot of hypocrisy if it is not.  Eventually there will be a carryops division in 3 gun, I was resistant to it in USPSA, but it is slowly growing and the sky hasn't fallen, so I guess it will be fine

 

Is this a discussion about all divisions or adding yet another, CO one? 

 

I give 0 f*#ks... I shoot open. 

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5 minutes ago, 3gunDQ said:

 

Is this a discussion about all divisions or adding yet another, CO one? 

 

 

IDK, both maybe?  I don't see adding Carry ops pistols to tacops as a viable option, what I do see happening is there eventually being another division  whether it is stealth or patrol (I am not sure just what those are), that will include carry ops pistols.  I don't  know if the pistols allowed  will be off the USPSA production list, or any non comped pistol, but it is coming.  Just like longer mag tubes, scopes on rifles, etc changed limited into what is now tac ops, there will eventually be a division that allows carry ops type pistols besides open.  And it wont be the end of the world.  The real question is always how does adding more options affect you in a negative way?   Everyone who doesn't want to shoot the new division can just continue to do what they were doing and pay no mind to the other divisions

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1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

IDK, both maybe?  I don't see adding Carry ops pistols to tacops as a viable option, what I do see happening is there eventually being another division  whether it is stealth or patrol (I am not sure just what those are), that will include carry ops pistols.  I don't  know if the pistols allowed  will be off the USPSA production list, or any non comped pistol, but it is coming.  Just like longer mag tubes, scopes on rifles, etc changed limited into what is now tac ops, there will eventually be a division that allows carry ops type pistols besides open.  And it wont be the end of the world.  The real question is always how does adding more options affect you in a negative way?   Everyone who doesn't want to shoot the new division can just continue to do what they were doing and pay no mind to the other divisions

 

If we are talking 3gn rules they could just change the rule back to one optic and CO peeps could run a dot on the rifle (1x) and a dot on any pistol.

 

How does it affect me? Doesn’t, I shoot open. The real question should be how does it affect the sport.... you can keep watering it down, or shoot and have fun. 

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If watering the sport down is a real problem then I vote everyone has to shoot tac ops, since it is the largest division and also has the majority of the best shooters.  Anyone who doesn't shoot tac ops is obviously a snowflake hider.  Just kidding, but there is a lot of truth in that statement, and is also why I don't see an issue adding a division.  But I usually shoot tac ops when I 3 gun, so whatever :-)

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11 minutes ago, RJH said:

If watering the sport down is a real problem then I vote everyone has to shoot tac ops, since it is the largest division and also has the majority of the best shooters.  Anyone who doesn't shoot tac ops is obviously a snowflake hider.  Just kidding, but there is a lot of truth in that statement, and is also why I don't see an issue adding a division.  But I usually shoot tac ops when I 3 gun, so whatever :-)

 

What about archery, sling shots, and spears? Primitive division? 

 

How about blunder busts, muskets, and wheeled cannons? Revolutionary division? 

 

How about i show up with some Roman candles, bottle rockets and Saturn missles and see how many targets I can hit? Fireworks division.

 

Also add LGBT as a category, along with gay only, and bi.... pregnant, infants, and fetuses all too. ALL inclusive. trophies all around... even make the trophies a snowflake. LMFAO

Edited by 3gunDQ
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1 minute ago, 3gunDQ said:

 

What about archery, sling shots, and spears? Primitive division? 

 

How about blunder busts, muskets, and wheeled cannons? Revolutionary division? 

 

How about i show up with some Roman candles, bottle rockets and Saturn missles and see him many targets I can hit? Fireworks division.

 

Also add LGBT as a category, along with gay only, and bi.... pregnant, infants, and fetusesall too. ALL inclusive. trophies all around... even make the trophies a snowflake. LMFAO

 

See, you went crazy as soon as you got called out for being an open division hider. Haha  

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Dude I ain’t been hiding. I’m just saying enough is enough with all these bullshit divisions. Every time Tom dick or Harry buys a new gimmick gun there doesn’t have to be a division. Hell, PCC makes three gun two gun. 

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I get what you are saying, all I am getting at is that I really figure that there will be a division catering to carry ops guns in the future, probably in the next couple years.  If you look at Toothandnail's division counts, I wouldn't be a stretch to kill the heavy classes, and reconfigure limited to something that includes the carry ops guns, and probably up your total competitor count.  Heavy is a lot like revolver and L10 in USPSA, most people don't shoot it but for some reason it is kept around for the 3 guys that do.  In USPSA, carry ops is growing, while SS, revo, and L10 are slowly dying.  It will be the same in 3 gun.  Times change, new shit comes along, and the rules are adjusted with it. 

 

Also on Toothandnails count you see an example of what a slightly different rule set can do.  15 or so years ago it was open and limited, there were some adjustments and tacops was born, and now at probably every match other than he-man nats, tac ops has more competitors than all the other divisions combined.  Something with carry ops could do the same thing, if it didn't, after a few years it could always s be killed off

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22 hours ago, 3gunDQ said:

Dude I ain’t been hiding. I’m just saying enough is enough with all these bullshit divisions. Every time Tom dick or Harry buys a new gimmick gun there doesn’t have to be a division. Hell, PCC makes three gun two gun. 

PCC makes three gun locally a ONE gun match.   

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PCC shooters get pissed when the match director (me) says you must use 2 guns in this coarse of fire. Other matches in the area let them shoot one gun give lots of alternate targets etc. This is a three gun match after all.  By the way I shoot open with a tacops  rifle and shotgun. Slide ride red dot on pistol.

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On 1/15/2018 at 9:41 PM, RJH said:

Also on Toothandnails count you see an example of what a slightly different rule set can do.  15 or so years ago it was open and limited, there were some adjustments and tacops was born, and now at probably every match other than he-man nats, tac ops has more competitors than all the other divisions combined.  Something with carry ops could do the same thing, if it didn't, after a few years it could always s be killed off

TO was created because the majority of shooters already had an optic on their rifle, it, almost immediately, became the biggest division.

Once CO pistols are 50% or more of pistols sold/possessed THEN a CO division will be viable. 

Now - we would be pushing shooters to change what they already have. OR - if allowed in an existing division would force those without a RDS to buy one to stay competitive.

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16 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

TO was created because the majority of shooters already had an optic on their rifle, it, almost immediately, became the biggest division.

 

This is probably right, but doesn't change the fact that rules were made one way and then adjusted.  Also longer mag tubes were incorporated and people had to get one to be competitive.  And it seems like something else I cant remember right now . 

 

16 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

 

Once CO pistols are 50% or more of pistols sold/possessed THEN a CO division will be viable. 

 

While this sounds reasonable at first, there are a lot of guys that have 45s but relatively no one shoots heavy, and according to your numbers even Open, which is fairly popular doesn't have half the market share.  And I bet there are considerably more Carry ops type pistols sold across the nation that open guns

 

16 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

Now - we would be pushing shooters to change what they already have. OR - if allowed in an existing division would force those without a RDS to buy one to stay competitive.

 

I agree 100 percent that you shouldn't put them in tac. 

 

 

One day in the near future a couple of majors will come up with a viable option for the carry ops type guns and that will be the only real litmus test.  I figure that it will end up being a somewhat more "tactical" type division, but could be way off.   Once again, I am not  advocating for or against the carry ops guns in 3 gun, just offering an opinion.  Have a good one

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48 minutes ago, RJH said:

One day in the near future a couple of majors will come up with a viable option for the carry ops type guns and that will be the only real litmus test.  I figure that it will end up being a somewhat more "tactical" type division, but could be way off.   Once again, I am not  advocating for or against the carry ops guns in 3 gun, just offering an opinion.  Have a good one

I'm not opposed to getting CO guns into a division somewhere at all.  I have several Glocks with RMR's on them, including my EDC G19.  I've never used them in 3 gun because it puts me in Open and I don't feel I'd be competitive in that division with my rifle and shotgun.  I also don't feel that it would give me much of an advantage in TacOps or Limited either though, with the exception of longer pistol shots.

 

With that said, I see a lot of irony in the people saying, "Carry Optics pistols shouldn't be in the Tactical Optics division, they should be in a more Tactical division that allows optics".  If anything, I think CO pistols should be rolled in TO.  I guarantee that the top shooters will still smoke me with iron sight pistols, but allowing them in a class where someone new could be somewhat competitive has the probability of getting more people into the sport.

 

What's the real difference between Limited and TO in most rule sets anyways?  It's just a dot vs a scope on the rifle and sometimes the shotgun is limited to holding a max of 8+1.  No difference between the pistols at all, so why not allow a tactical style pistol optic in the TACTICAL OPTICS division.  Although that might lead to people arguing for shotgun optics in TO as well, which will make some heads explode.  It's really funny how polarizing this topic has been, but you're always going to have people that are extremely opposed to change of any type.  All sports have to evolve with the times or they become stagnant and lose favor.  I'm not saying that not adopting CO will make that happen to 3 gun, but don't just draw a line in the sand and refuse to ever move.  Eventually the tide will win.

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Red dots on pistols is happening - like it or not it is the future of defensive pistols just like quality red dots or 1-X scopes are now on rifles.  This is of course the root of this discussion but look at where rifles were 10-15 years ago - pretty much the same place pistols with red dots are now. 

 

Disclaimer - I've only been shooting 3 gun for about 3 years and I don't shoot USPSA or IPSC, etc.  I've never shot a "major" match - just local stuff about 4 times a month when there's no snow on the ground.  The local matches around me mostly follow the 3GN rules/divisions.  The 3 "main" divisions (I say "main" because the number of shooters I've seen in the other divisions in my 3 years TOTAL can be counted on one or maybe two hands) are Open (Unlimited), TacOps (Practical), and Limited (Factory) - we don't really care about the others for this discussion since they are a statistically insignificant amount of shooters. 

 

We all know there's essentially no limits in Open so there are significant advantages to be had with the equipment.  Mag fed shotguns, etc. A poor (less skilled) open shooter can get beat by good TacOps or Limited shooters, but a decent Open shooter will beat most TacOps/Limited shooters most the time.  Obviously there are exceptional Limited and TacOps guys that can beat average Open guys, etc. but generally speaking Open will be significantly faster than the other two popular divisions.

 

The main difference between the other two popular divisions Limited and TacOps are the 1-X magnified scope in TacOps while Limited shooters almost all run a 1x red dot or prism scope, and there's usually a slight difference in the amount of rounds Limited folks can have in their guns at any time (15 in the pistol, 30 in the rifle) while the TacOps guys are usually running a 20ish round pistol mag and maybe 1 or 2 more rounds in the shotgun with a 30-40 round rifle mag.  Details may vary slightly based on your locale and match directors/ruleset.  The local matches around here are almost all shorter bays less than 100 yards -  I've shot with both regular red dots and 1-4 and 1-6x scopes and honestly the magnified optic is honestly not a huge advantage at the shorter ranges.  On the real close hoser stuff the regular red dot is actually an advantage since there's no eye relief to worry about (but that is another discussion altogether).  Essentially the difference for me between Limited and TacOps is negligible MOST the time.  There were a match or two here and there where there were 300-400 yard targets and the 1-6x really helped a lot and would have been significantly slower than a regular red dot - but typically the differences are not huge and certainly not as significant as between Open and Limited/TacOps.

 

I've always wanted an excuse to put a red dot on a pistol and my G34 MOS I was running for the last year or so in 3 gun really wanted me to put a red dot on it, so I've said many times that the Tactical OPTICS division should allow slide mounted "optics" on the pistol.  If people don't want to compete against a pistol with an OPTIC on it, they could run in the non-optic division known as Limited (Factory).  The other differences are not really that great are they?  

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