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my thought on a carry optic pistol was directly tied to age.  anyone over 65 ought to be able to shoot one as the sights are plumb fuzzy these days.

old farts have slowed down so it ain't gonna slew the prize table walk.  just help old farts.

:rolleyes:

                          :cheers:

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2 hours ago, 1chota said:

my thought on a carry optic pistol was directly tied to age.  anyone over 65 ought to be able to shoot one as the sights are plumb fuzzy these days.

old farts have slowed down so it ain't gonna slew the prize table walk.  just help old farts.

:rolleyes:

                          :cheers:

 

I would put the age lower. Lol  The average adult needs readers by age 45. I was lucky till 50. Now its "What front sight?"

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I'd like to use a CO gun as that is what my duty gun is and what I shoot in uspsa.  If 3gun allowed it, I'd use it.  I don't want to shoot open because I'm not allowed to have a decent open shotgun in this state nor do I really want one.  I like the shotgun and pretty much all the rules in tactical better than open.  Just wish I could use a dot on my pistol.    

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6 hours ago, mpeltier said:

A Carry optic pistol and an open pistol are not even in the same ballpark...........not even in the same zip code. Those suggesting to "Just shoot Open" either have never shot a carry optic pistol or are just in denial and want more people to shoot open for personal reasons. It easily could be allowed in Tac-Optic with very little change to the rule book and no additional divisions. And it would not be an advantage that is any different than when dots started to be allowed on limited rifles. It has always been strange that we have a division called Tac-Optic and only ONE optic is allowed out of three firearms. But then again if this were allowed, there might be an exodus from Open, which might kill the division. I can see where the Die Hard open shooters would be afraid of this.

this is the truth.   those who differ haven't considered the real difference.  Ask Jerry Miculek.  Word.

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Whether a slide ride dot is equal to a real open gun is irrelevant. Most of the people in favor of it have already admitted they aren't spring chickens and can't see the sights and are likely not very competitive. If you're not in it to win it, why the need for a special division to cater to you rather than just having fun in whatever division your chosen guns fall into?

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11 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

Whether a slide ride dot is equal to a real open gun is irrelevant. Most of the people in favor of it have already admitted they aren't spring chickens and can't see the sights and are likely not very competitive. If you're not in it to win it, why the need for a special division to cater to you rather than just having fun in whatever division your chosen guns fall into?

 

You Assume a lot. 

1) Theres more to the differences and considerations to shooting open than just a slide mounted dot on the pistol. It is very relevant, if you approach the discussion with an open mind.

2) Not very competitive? You surely don't know your audience. 

3) No need for any additional division(s) A carry optic pistol would fit perfectly in Tac-Optics and not be any unfair advantage. Unless you believe that winning against someone who no longer sees well that would have kicked your but a couple of years ago is honorable.

4) One of the issues with this sport is how slow to change some folks are. We saw it with limited when it was suggested, and finally adopted, to incorporate dot sights there. Much resistance ensued. When it finally happened the sky did not fall, and it was admitted by many to end up being a non issue. The same would happen in this case as well.

 

Your only 28 right? Im sure by the time your in your 40's and need reading glasses this whole thing will be long behind us and you will appreciate any advancements that take place in the meantime.

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Believe it or not, I almost failed my CDL physical because my right eyesight is so bad. There's a lot of things that are fuzzier than I care for, but I've never considered a rules change to accommodate it. My peers would also never let me forget the advantage, however slight, that a dot may give when I beat them. 

There's quite a few guys around here that are a little higher mileage that shoot open just because they want a bipod or a full tube to start a stage but no other open sqecific equipment. They do what they want and place probably exactly where they would if entirely within tac ops rules. Unless you're going for a division win what difference does it make?

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All things being equal the dot is not an advantage on a carry optic pistol.  Withering eyesight is a serious disadvantage. I am certain that younger competitors if given the choice would still shoot iron pistols. I still manage top finishes with Irons, its just an unnecessary struggle to manage them, especially in low light where old eyes really suffer. I do this for fun, I have shot open guns and their not my cup of tea. I am very competitive in Tac-Optics. I always go for the division win.

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I'd think most people, given the choice, would go for a dot over open sights.  Much easier to shoot with - once you get used to it - some of the young folks now may be starting out with dot sights and don't even use open sights.

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My last "Major" match pistol win was High Super Senior at the Mid-Atlantic Sectional in 2004.  I dropped out of USPSA in 2010 but continued shooting Tac Optics 3-Gun.  Lately I've really struggled with iron sights on my pistol and did not shoot any 3-Gun this year.  Bought a PCC, added a dot and am back having fun in USPSA.  Add CO to 3-Gun and I would be back.

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A couple of my friends that are older than I, shot their carry optics guns in Open. They were able to start with full tubes on their shotguns and mag restrictions were non existent for the rifle. 

My eyes are not what they used to be. I need correction for iron sights, with the astigmatism I have a dot is worse than than iron sights. Like many in my age range I also have cataracts that will need to be addressed when they are bad enough. 

I continue to use iron sights, with flip up readers that fit on my Decot glasses.

 

Edited by Dan Sierpina
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2 hours ago, RiggerJJ said:

I disagree Mark, a dot on a pistol IS a great advantage...I shoot em both.

 

see my post above back in August...

jj

 

I did see your post jj. We will just have to respectfully disagree. I have shot all three and the carry optics only advantage was I can shoot it with regular safety glasses instead of special reader style glasses. On the clock and running drills in over a year of running both irons and the optic, on the same pistol (m&p core) scores and times are litteraly the same. Not even close to an open pistol. Its literally no differant than a dot on a limited rifle. 

 

Which two of the three do you shoot when you say you shoot em both?

 

irons

carry optic

open

Edited by mpeltier
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On 11/10/2017 at 6:49 PM, 1chota said:

this is the truth.   those who differ haven't considered the real difference.  Ask Jerry Miculek.  Word.

Jerry runs an M&P "Open" pistol. With no power factor in 3-gun, the dot and mags are the main difference with the pistol. At minor PF, the comps dont have as much gas to work with anyway.

 

The rifle is not appreciably different between divisions in my opinion except on certain stages where a bipod, etc. offers significant advantage if you're shooting Open.

 

The shotgun is where things really split. Being able to run a mag-fed shotgun keeps you from having to learn to be able to load the firearm.

 

I would agree that adding more divisions is NOT the answer. Open, Tac, and Heavy are plenty.

Wanna run a dot? Shoot open. Grab a 170mm mag for your Glock or M&P, etc. And enjoy.

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On 11/12/2017 at 11:28 AM, TonytheTiger said:

I'll continue being argumentative and say I think a dot on a rifle is a significant advantage over irons.

And, I will concur with that statement as well, and continue to maintain that the dot on the pistol is an advantage over true irons. There's only 2 things to line up instead of 3. If it wasn't an advantage, there would be people shooting USPSA "Open" with Irons as well, but that doesn't happen.

 

We don't need more divisions to further water-down the competition; 3GN has tried it and I don't think that having a dozen divisions is even remotely practical to administer. I understand that times are changing and technology is advancing, but presently, the vast majority of folk do NOT have dots on their pistols.

 

I think it would be interesting to see more matches running fewer divisions (Tac and Heavy) with just a few basic parameters to guide equipment choices and have everyone shoot the same division. Allow dots on everything, and bipods, long shotgun tubes, etc. Require that dots must be slide-mounted on pistol. Only barrel porting is permitted on pistols; no add-on comps, etc. No limits on rifles. not sure what to do with shotguns re: mag fed or not. Everybody is competing against everybody just the same.

I hear there is some weirdo in Birmingham, AL that's even trying this...

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Yep, as wgj3 explains above, a dot (and longer mags to some extent) make the biggest difference. A dot is the FIRST item you put on a gun to "open-ize" it, be it pistol, rifle, or shotgun. There is a reason for that. Its quicker up close, and WAAAAY helpful at long distances, at intermediate distances like 10-20 yards it means the difference between hits and misses, and it really shines when moving and shooting. Don't have to align anything, just put the dot on the target and let er have it. Don't have to post up and for a group of tgts, just keep moving and wail away. 

Nope, a dot on a pistol IS a remarkable definite advantage over iron sights, and has no business in TO division.

 

(I shoot an open pistols and iron sighted, no COs)

 

for 3 gun with no power factors, the comps on a pistol are not really that big of a player, except for the added weight...

jj

Edited by RiggerJJ
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Just allow CO pistols limited to 10 rounds into TO/Tactical.  CO was originally limited to 10 rounds.

 

It won't require another division.

 

Yes the optic is an advantage.  But the 10 round limit is not definitely not an advantage.   Maybe it will be a wash.  Maybe it won't.  It is up in the air.  

 

As a TO shooter I wouldn't mind letting CO pistols limited to 10 rounds into TO.  

 

CO pistols with full cap 140MM mags into TO?  No thanks. 

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A carry optics pistol has a dot.  Adding a dot to a pistol makes it an open pistol under nearly every ruleset currently used in our sport.  Just because a pistol lacks ALL of the features of an open pistol, or that one person does not shoot it any better than a limited pistol does not matter.  As the rules are now if it has a dot it is an open pistol.  If you want to shoot a pistol with a dot there is a place for that, it is open.  If you do not want to compete with the other shooters who choose to shot a pistol with a dot then don't shoot a pistol with a dot.  If you are certain this new division will be more popular than the Beatles then what better way to drum up support is there than by using your chosen equipment to compete in an existing division?  If it is so swell soon enough everyone else will be doing it and there will be a grass roots uprising to add CO to all three gun matches.  I personally am pushing for a division with a PCC (and open pistol back up), tube fed shotguns only (but you can use as many as you like), and open rifle (with steel targets that STRONGLY favor 308).  I will call this new division Talley Trooper, and I will let you shoot your CO pistol in it if you like!

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On 11/14/2017 at 8:04 PM, Religious Shooter said:

Just allow CO pistols limited to 10 rounds into TO/Tactical.  CO was originally limited to 10 rounds.

 

It won't require another division.

 

Yes the optic is an advantage.  But the 10 round limit is not definitely not an advantage.   Maybe it will be a wash.  Maybe it won't.  It is up in the air.  

 

As a TO shooter I wouldn't mind letting CO pistols limited to 10 rounds into TO.  

 

CO pistols with full cap 140MM mags into TO?  No thanks. 

Then we have to start counting rounds...?

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We have counted and had limited rounds in divisions for awhile.

 

Production... 10 rounds.

 

HM... 10 round pistol... 20 rounds rifle...

 

SS... has a round limit depending on caliber.

 

Doesn't revolver have a limit?

 

etc.

 

All of these divisions have existed for years... maybe decades...

 

No way will CO with full cap magazines be let into the biggest division TS/TO/Tactical.

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5 hours ago, Religious Shooter said:

We have counted and had limited rounds in divisions for awhile.

 

Production... 10 rounds.

 

HM... 10 round pistol... 20 rounds rifle...

 

SS... has a round limit depending on caliber.

 

Doesn't revolver have a limit?

 

etc.

 

All of these divisions have existed for years... maybe decades...

 

No way will CO with full cap magazines be let into the biggest division TS/TO/Tactical.

 

All of those divisions are USPSA pistol, we are talking about 3 gun.  Why bring our sport down to the level of USPSA?

 

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