Carry Optics in 3 Gun: Post your opinion.

[StealthyBlagga]

5 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

I agree with JJ on this. I just don't see Stealth or "Open Lite" being different enough. Carry Optics is quite unique in USPSA with minor scoring and 23 round mags. Hell, it's actually fun to shoot that division. But even in Stealth are you not just splitting your pool of Open shooters locally? Maybe I'm wrong and it's the new hotness in a couple of years. 

 

Stealth Division was conceived with two goals in mind:

 

1) Create a home for "real World" tactical guns. As SinistralRifleman indicated above, the Roland Special concept is getting traction in that arena, and dual optics on an M4 have been a thing in the military for many years, yet neither are really competitive in Open.  

2) To attract some folks out of Tactical Division, which has become bloated to the point where walking the prize table at a major match takes forever. A Tactical competitor can bring his regular handgun, rifle and shotgun, and the only change he likely will HAVE to make is install a short shotgun magazine tube. This makes Stealth division very accessible.

 

The handgun rules were not crafted specifically to accommodate CO handguns, but  were written to allow optics (slide or frame mounted are OK), comps/porting and any other modifications the shooter wants to make. The only constraint is the size. We thought this to be quite an interesting approach for a new division, and offers the shooter an opportunity to innovate and play to their strengths without having to navigate a confusing list of what modifications are or are not allowed. If it fits in the box as stipulated, it is good to go - simple. I shoot Stealth with iron sights as - for me - the longer magazine with extra rounds is more valuable than the optic. I also have a compact compensator:

 

 

The Stealth rifle rules are the most closely aligned with Open Division, but the competitor is limited to 30-round magazines, which can be a challenge. Also, if they choose to use a bipod, then they have to leave it on the gun for the whole match. Again, it's all about choosing the trade-offs that work for you.

 

Stealth shotgun rules are the biggest difference from Open. Box magazines and speed loaders are not allowed, so the gun has to be loaded by hand (something Open shooters generally loath). The magazine tube is length-restricted but not capacity-restricted; in my case, I can load 9+1+1 for 11 rounds at start.

 

Our experience has been that we get very little cross-over from Open - instead, most of our Stealth shooters came from Tactical or Limited. At our local matches, Stealth enjoys about the same level of participation as Limited (~10%), and more than Heavy Metal.

 

I hope this helps you see how Stealth Division is, in fact, very different from any other division, and why we think it is a worthwhile addition to the sport.

Edited August 31, 2018 by StealthyBlagga

[Darqusoull13]

Fair enough. If y'all are having a good turnout maybe I'm wrong about the division. Out of curiosity do you see more crossover from the tactical folks into 2 gun versions of traditional divisions or Stealth? Locally nearly all our shooters from that demographic go into 2 gun divisions out of a loathing of the shotgun and an aversion to any division with a boomstick involved. 

Hell, does anyone really enjoy loading a shotgun by hand? 

57 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

Stealth shotgun rules are the biggest difference from Open. Box magazines and speed loaders are not allowed, so the gun has to be loaded by hand (something Open shooters generally loath). The magazine tube is length-restricted but not capacity-restricted; in my case, I can load 9+1+1 for 11 rounds at start.

 

[TonytheTiger]

2 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Hell, does anyone really enjoy loading a shotgun by hand? 

Absolutely.

[bishop414]

57 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Hell, does anyone really enjoy loading a shotgun by hand? 

 

Yes.  It is a skill for 3 gun, real world, not so much but for our game yes.

[StealthyBlagga]

5 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

...Out of curiosity do you see more crossover from the tactical folks into 2 gun versions of traditional divisions or Stealth?...

 

I'd say we see both. Since starting to offer 2-Gun and 3-Gun divisions at our matches, the 2-gunners are representing a sizeable % across all the divisions. My feeling is that, over the long term, 2-Gun participation will continue to grow while 3-Gun will atrophy. However, until major match MDs start having trouble filling their events, I think the majors will remain 3-Gun only.

 

Hell, does anyone really enjoy loading a shotgun by hand? 

 

In their mom's basement, yes. After the beep, not so much

Edited September 1, 2018 by StealthyBlagga

[Darqusoull13]

14 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

I'd say we see both. Since starting to offer 2-Gun and 3-Gun divisions at our matches, the 2-gunners are representing a sizeable % across all the divisions. My feeling is that, over the long term, 2-Gun participation will continue to grow while 3-Gun will atrophy. However, until major match MDs start having trouble filling their events, I think the majors will remain 3-Gun only.

 

 

In their mom's basement, yes. After the beep, not so much

At our falling steel match tube fed shotguns have almost disappeared. Every now and then shooters with a major coming up will shoot the match pistol and shotgun to practice. Carry Optics is just “Optics Pistol” and since it’s steel, minor power factor and no comp isn’t a big disadvantage. 

 

The 2 gun rule set for the same 3 gun match is a very interesting idea. Once they are hooked new shooters might put up with adding shotgun to shoot a major.

 

20 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

Absolutely.

Man if you like quad loading you would LOVE mag loading a shotgun. 1 load and you have 20 more shots before you have to stop shooting and load again!! 

[The Donald]

A couple guys that shoot OPEN around here have built a 2011 'carry optics' type pistol. Use a sight tracker with ports in the barrel and slide mounted optics. Much easier to carry in a normal retention holster and they are 9mm, since 3 gun has no power factor.

[USCSBarney]

53 minutes ago, The Donald said:

A couple guys that shoot OPEN around here have built a 2011 'carry optics' type pistol. Use a sight tracker with ports in the barrel and slide mounted optics. Much easier to carry in a normal retention holster and they are 9mm, since 3 gun has no power factor.

I have built one very similar. No ports in the island but with minor I doubt it makes a difference. Only played with it so far but hope to shoot in a match next weekendZ

[SinistralRifleman]

On 8/30/2018 at 8:02 AM, RiggerJJ said:

Not really...

 

It's just Open with mag restrictions. And I find the box thing totally rediculous.

 

And by the way, neither of the above pistols are legal, the slides are not truly parallel with the top.

(Unless the rules are even more bloated by saying something like "within 1/4in of being parallel...")

 

I didn't expect anyone to range lawyer photos.  Rest assured they fit in the box with the slides parallel. 

 

 

 

Your response here is a good example of the myopic view competitors get of the gun world.  There's a lot of things going on outside this small market.  People building the most effective guns they can actually carry daily is one of them; this is one reason why dimensional restrictions make things interesting.  The less martially alligned competition gets, the more it excludes real world equipment by relegating it to open division only, the less appeal the sport has over time to the broad base of gun owners that consistently state the reason they purchase guns is self defense as a primary factor (95-98% in NSSF surveys).  

 

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by SinistralRifleman

[SinistralRifleman]

Following up on Richard's comments on 2 gun divisions at his 3 Gun match.  2 Gun in AZ continues to grow, an it's a completely different demographic of shooters.  

 

Match Directors around the country take note.  I've been saying it for years.  The demographics are shifting.   InRange TV is also influencing 18-30 somethings into participating in 2 Gun.  Incorporate 2 gun into your club matches if you want to keep fresh blood coming in.  

[RiggerJJ]

Just proves how silly the box is...

 

And there is nothing at all wrong with open division, that's what it's for, new innovations. The other divisions are equipment restricted for several reasons, one being to keep from having to upgrade equipment every 3 months

 

[SinistralRifleman]

2 hours ago, RiggerJJ said:

Just proves how silly the box is...

 

And there is nothing at all wrong with open division, that's what it's for, new innovations. The other divisions are equipment restricted for several reasons, one being to keep from having to upgrade equipment every 3 months

 

 

I fail to see how that proves how silly the box is.  It’s an objective criteria.  Anything larger than that is unlikely to meet the size requirements of a service pistol.  Open 2011s with frame mounted optics will never be used as carry or duty guns in large part because of their size and weight; Glocks with slide mounted optics are being used in these roles. 

 

The features that make guns “open” artificially retard development at this point.  

It forces shooters to make an all or nothing choice.  They may have one gun or one feature that’s “open” but it is simpler to remove it or use something else than going all in on open division.  Stealth Division as written is the best place to play with these concepts currently.  

 

One path for advancement and development occurs with the need to make things smaller and more efficient. Open division as is doesn’t encourage that at all.  It does in fact encourage the opposite.  

 

The future is now.  Matches can keep up with market trends and changing shooter demographics or 10-20 years down the line they can wonder where all their shooters went.  Without continuous tweaking of equipment division rules to keep up with these trends; 3 gun can become like cowboy action.  Stuck in a particular time and place without any relevance to anything current.  

 

Every time these topics have come

up over the past 18 years I’ve been involved in practical shooting people always want to argue with me but the market later proves me right; whether that’s using PCCs in multigun starting in 2004, magazine fed shotguns starting in 2006 (Remington and Mossberg both make them now),  or slide mounted red dots back in 2010.  Progress will march on with or without you.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by SinistralRifleman

[Darqusoull13]

Based on this I'm going to specifically market to the slide mounted dot crowd until the end if the year. If attendance increases in our matches because of it, I'm happy. Maybe I'll bug you guys for box dimensions... Whatever it takes to get more people shooting. 

[StealthyBlagga]

2 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Based on this I'm going to specifically market to the slide mounted dot crowd until the end if the year. If attendance increases in our matches because of it, I'm happy. Maybe I'll bug you guys for box dimensions... Whatever it takes to get more people shooting. 

 

Feel free to copy Stealth rules verbatim from the IMA rules posted at the SMM3G website if that makes life easier for you. The Stealth box is a lot larger than the official USPSA box - a 2011 Limited gun with 140 mags will easily fit. No need to even have an official box; just marking an 8x10 piece of paper with the dimensions will suffice to get started.

 

I would also echo what Russell said above - if you really want to grow your attendance, allow folks to shoot 2-Gun versions of your divisions too. Stage design needs a little more careful thought, but it’s easy when you get the hang of it. I’d be happy to send tou some examples of 2G/3G stages if you wish... just EM/IM me. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by StealthyBlagga