IHAVEGAS Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 I'm thinking that one of the things 9.5.5 is saying is that if you have a blob hole in a target with no evidence of a grease ring , like you'd get with a partial hit in wood hard cover for example, then a second indication that the blob should be scored as a hit would be a bullet shaped crescent. Unfortunately that is just a wild guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facedown Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Yes, an arc or "radius" consistent with the competitor's bullet diameter as judged with an overlay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 7 hours ago, facedown said: Yes, an arc or "radius" consistent with the competitor's bullet diameter as judged with an overlay. Thanks. "as judged with an overlay" is that in the rulebook or is it something that is considered to be a best practice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 9.6.8. And be careful. Many bullets tumble, and some perfectly round bullet holes show no 'grease ring'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 35 minutes ago, zzt said: 9.6.8. And be careful. Many bullets tumble, and some perfectly round bullet holes show no 'grease ring'. The no grease ring thing is sort of what got me started down this path. As best I can tell from recent observations / input. Tumbling bullets may not leave any grease ring and tumbling bullets shot at open gun velocities can leave a strange looking hole (perhaps the jacket peels under some circumstances?) Bullets which partially strike hard cover may not leave a grease ring and can leave a pretty strange looking hole. When scoring: 1. An r.o. has to make a judgment call about whether or not a strange hole on an unobstructed target was a hit. 2. In the event hard cover was in play, the r.o. has to look at the hard cover and attempt to determine if the bullet was entirely in the hard cover (Mike, or perhaps no penalty if the hit was in a no-shoot) or partially in the hard cover (score per 9.6.8 but judgement may be needed in centering of overlay) . This is much more do-able if the hard cover was previously intact or if previous shots through the hard cover were pasted or perhaps black painted over. 3. There is no way to take best judgement out of the process, so if the shooter does not agree with the r.o. then their recourse option is to call for the next level of authority. Right?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, zzt said: 9.6.8. And be careful. Many bullets tumble, and some perfectly round bullet holes show no 'grease ring'. 9.6.8 concerns determining scoring zones. If the blob is in the middle of the A-Zone, 9.6.8 does not apply. That said, here is the OP's subject rule: 9.5.5 Enlarged holes in paper targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evidence within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a “crown” etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet or splatter. Notice the "etc". That brings us into the area of judgment call. if there is a curved partial diameter cut in the target that matches the radius of the shooter's ammo, as verified by overlay, I would be inclined to call a hit. It the diameter was larger or smaller, I would call a miss. Remember, 9.5.5 states that it is a miss unless there is visible evidence. ETA: And as Gas pointed out while I was slowly typing this, if the shooter disagrees with the call, kick it upstairs. Edited August 22, 2017 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 hour ago, ChuckS said: to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet or splatter. I think I am good on this one now and apologize if I am detailing it to death. But, one more thing . Noticed a couple blobs shot with open guns (two different shooters) Saturday. Both blobs were in targets that were away from hard cover and there was not a reason to suspect a ricochet or splatter. Since I had no strong reason for a presumption of ricochet or splatter I am assuming that the right course was to score the hit as I believe it occurred even though I could find no grease ring or crown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 49 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said: I think I am good on this one now and apologize if I am detailing it to death. But, one more thing . Noticed a couple blobs shot with open guns (two different shooters) Saturday. Both blobs were in targets that were away from hard cover and there was not a reason to suspect a ricochet or splatter. Since I had no strong reason for a presumption of ricochet or splatter I am assuming that the right course was to score the hit as I believe it occurred even though I could find no grease ring or crown? Those guns probably are suffering from comp strikes. that will quickly turn a bullet end over end with the slightest touch. I have seen hits on targets out in a wide open field course that looked like they threw a rock through it. No grease, no crown, just a big jagged hole. Since I watched the guy shoot the target and hit it I scored it as a hit. Sometimes, no matter what people say, you have to use your head when scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amokscience Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I've watched a shooter put two into a wide open target then a third bullet-blob appeared (on a no shoot) as he transitioned to another target. It was from the next bay or two over. I went with what I heard and saw although that would be a tough call if we needed an RM to look at the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Sarge said: Those guns probably are suffering from comp strikes. Makes sense, had not thought about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 e.g = for example i.e = that is Grease rings are NOT definitive proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 On 8/22/2017 at 11:07 AM, amokscience said: I've watched a shooter put two into a wide open target then a third bullet-blob appeared (on a no shoot) as he transitioned to another target. It was from the next bay or two over. I went with what I heard and saw although that would be a tough call if we needed an RM to look at the target. how in the world did a round from the next bay or two over make it into a target on the bay you were shooting? I've been fragged plenty of times from steel on adjacent bays but have never seen a full bullet go thru a berm and hit a target.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 1 hour ago, 9x45 said: how in the world did a round from the next bay or two over make it into a target on the bay you were shooting? I've been fragged plenty of times from steel on adjacent bays but have never seen a full bullet go thru a berm and hit a target.... I was showing clear at a match when a rock from the next bay smacked me pretty good on the ear muff. Slide down -"WHACK" , didn't know what had happened until one of the folks who saw it told me, figured I must have dq'd somehow. That club has started putting plastic barrels behind targets which require you to shoot into the stone on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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