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cheby

Czechmate vs 2011

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On 8/9/2017 at 10:35 AM, cheby said:

I know this has been discussed before but I want to revisit the topic once again.

I am thinking about shooting Open next season and deciding on the Open gun. I shoot CZs in Production now.

I understand that 2011s are the most common Open guns with endless custom parts and gunsmiths available. However, I do not think I have seen too many Open shooters who were able to finish a match without a malfunction of some kind. Looks like you need to have at least 4 Open guns and a competent gunsmith available 24/7 to be able to compete seriously -  and I am not interested in shooting club matches only occasionally. The idea of tuning magazines is preposterous as well. This has always been my main reservation against shooting Open.  Perhaps that is the way it is; however, I want to at least explore other options. 

Czechmate appears to be a more reliable gun that can be run without screwing around endlessly.  The question is what is the trade-off? Should I just get a 2011 like everybody else and deal with it?  I try to take the price out of the consideration but I am not ready to drop $5-6K on a custom gun either.

Thanks   

    

My two cents: in my experience the Czechmate (and its mags) are less finnicky and "just work" more so than a 2011. (CZ customs did install custom basepads; not sure if they also tuned the mags, but per their rep CZ mags just work).

 

All of that said, to really enjoy the Czechmate, you may want to put more work into it. Work that many 2011s don't need.

 

For posterity, here are the areas in which the Czechmate falls short of, say, an Atlas 2011 (yes I realize the price difference), with suggestions on how to address each issue:

  • Grips: the 2011 Phoenix Trinity grips are just nicer; fit better in my hand. The PT grips also offer more grip surface for medium to larger hands, on the support side. Have a look at the CZC custom mag scales.
  • Magwell: the factory magwell is poorly blended with the frame and pretty small. It doesn't really work as well as the 2011 magwells that I've seen. The CZC custom magwell is a big improvment.
  • Trigger: The trigger is pretty great, and probably the best non-1911/2011 trigger I've ever shot. The CZC metal, straight trigger is a nice upgrade.
  • Slideracker: ugh, one of the weakest points of the gun. You can put it on the right side of the gun (which is the wrong side for righties :-). Have a look at the EGW Sidewinder slideracker--I'm still experimenting with it, but it seems to work. Might need some custom work to get the set screw to stay. The slideracker really belongs further forward, as it is on a 2011, where it doesn't interfere with the thumb.
  • Slide stop - best to run without the slide release lever = more room for your thumb
  • Safety - not as nice as a 1911. Consider CZC extended (this is the one part in my review that I haven't tried, so YMMV).
  • Controls - the Czechmate controls tend to all bunch up on the left side where your thumb wants to go. This gets crowded and slows you down. Swapping out the slideracker and removing the slide release both help quite a bit.
  • Custom recoil spring - you can run the Wolff CZC springs. Out of the box I believe the gun is sprung at 14lbs, for major power factor. That's probably oversprung for most 9mm ammo.

On the plus side, the Czechmate is very flat shooting and comes with lots of extra parts (2 barrels, multiple slide releases, etc. etc.)

 

So, the Czechmate a nice gun, but if you get serious about open, you may find yourself pouring more money into it. The Czechmate is a respectable open starter gun, but--call me a rebel--if you are trying to save $ and are set on a new gun, I'd personally build a Glock open gun (G17, KKM barrel + comp, Deltapoint Pro, any trigger work that you want, Dawson magwell, Magpul 21s), and you'll have a very low-maintenance gun (minor powerfactor, albeit) for even less than a Czechmate. The only place the Glock open gun falls short is on the trigger, but everything else just runs and you can drop the mags without fear :).

 

Edited by shootmove
fix

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On 8/9/2017 at 12:49 PM, aandabooks said:

Don't rule out the Tanfo Gold Team if you like CZs.  Under $2k without optic/mount when they are in stock.  I've been waiting for a 9mm or .38 SC to come available.

I happen to have 2 38 sc gold teams available 😜

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I just searched Google for Czechmate vs 2011 and this thread was the only real comparison I could find, so I'm just going to respond here.

 

I've had my Czechmate for a while now.  I just sent my mags to Bevin for tuning...kept having nose dive issues regardless of bullet type or OAL and it cost me bigly on three stages at a recent local match.  I've also ordered the CZC magwell, because my factory magwell came with just a set screw on the side and when you tighten it sufficiently to stop it from coming loose, it gets forced rearward from the torque and makes the un-blended edges even worse.  I didn't want to blend with the factory magwell because of this poor fit.  I was fine with the size, but not the alignment.

 

Anyway, this has all lead me down the path of - "What am I missing by not going with a 2011?"  I'm a CZ guy, I have many, and love them, but the lack of aftermarket parts for the CM is leaving me wanting.  However, I also know that a new or different gun likely isn't going to make me a better shooter, at least not yet.  Also, I know CZ's inside and out now (thanks to this forum and some very well done videos).  I can tear them down to bare bones, clean (and polish if needed), repair or replace parts that wear and fit parts that need fitting. So I'll probably stick with the CM for now, but it's tough when there are a few pretty nice 2011's in the classifieds.

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I put a little metal spacer between the grip and magwell to prevent the magwell from moving forward when you tighten the set screw.

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i add another m4 set screw on the opposite side of the magwell .now it's seats perfectly on the middle  of the grip.😉

all shooters from the club that switched from CZ to 2011 guns don't want go back.they results in all competitions now in the top .

u can't compare  top 2011 guns and aftermarket parts for this platform  with good reliable but sloppy made  cz CM 😉

 

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15 minutes ago, yigal said:

i add another m4 set screw on the opposite side of the magwell .now it's seats perfectly on the middle  of the grip.😉

all shooters from the club that switched from CZ to 2011 guns don't want go back.they results in all competitions now in the top .

u can't compare  top 2011 guns and aftermarket parts for this platform  with good reliable but sloppy made  cz CM 😉

 

Good idea on the set screw.  I just don't have the tools to do that properly. 

 

I'm really waffling between switching or not.  At this time, I don't think the gun is going to suddenly make me a GM class shooter; on the flip side, I want any advantage I can get.

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ok

yes  i understand. it's need to be done properly.

all guns that shoot in competitions need to be checked and adjusted properly  every session. and it's not matter if this 2011/1911 platform

or cz CM.

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I have 3 2011s in .38s. Checked? yes for maintenance. Adjusted? No. Once adjusted to my likings ang functions, they stay as is. Except when i replace a part/s w/c is very seldom. And i shoot them a lot. 

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24 minutes ago, BoyGlock said:

I have 3 2011s in .38s. Checked? yes for maintenance. Adjusted? No. Once adjusted to my likings ang functions, they stay as is. Except when i replace a part/s w/c is very seldom. And i shoot them a lot. 

u mean 3 glocks  from 2011?😀

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I shot a Czechmate for many years so I will pass along my experience:

 

Pros: Runs out of the box except magazines require tuning

          One of the best factory triggers

          Heavy gun so recoil is very light

          Reasonable pricing

 

Cons: Very limited parts availability  (tough to find something in stock if it breaks, slow warranty service)

           Breaks from heavy use (slide stops, barrel under lug cracks, frame cracks)

 

I tried everything imaginable to make the Czechmate reliable but in the end, it always let me down (especially before big matches). I broke 4-5 barrels, many slide stops and one frame where the slide stop goes through.  The design they use just is not beefy enough to handle major rounds. The barrel slams the slide stop when it comes out of battery and this prolonged beating eventually breaks slide stops and barrels. After a long time, the frame also cracks where the slide stop goes through. They seem to be good to about 10 K rounds but after that, everything went down hill.

 

There is a reason 99 % of people run 2011 open guns.

 

 

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@FTP_Shooting_Sports

Never seen a broken Czechmate frame, only barrels.

Same spot as shadow 2 cracks in?
Do you have a picture?

 

 

Might been a damaged Skoda part they used on the CM frame  :P @yigal

 

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Posted (edited)

The frame cracks on the right hand side through the little block that the slide stop goes through. The material there just seems too thin.

 

Unlike the 1911 where the barrel pivots on the barrel link, the CZ design has the slide stop and barrel taking a huge hit every time it comes out of battery. Over time, this breaks slide stops but it also breaks barrels and frames. I have the CZ in slow motion and it cycles almost twice as fast as a 1911. That is a lot of energy and something has to give.


I even had a gun smith try to lengthen the stroke of the CZ to slow things down but it didn't help much. I also tried DPM type systems. The gun is great for people that do not do high rounds counts but for a serious competitor, I would not endorse the reliability.

I also talked to people on the CZ shooting team and people from the CZ factory before giving up on the platform. I liked it a lot but now I have moved to the 2011 platform and gotten used to it :)

Edited by FTP_Shooting_Sports

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Posted (edited)

Perhaps there are different dynamics in play between a limited and open gun.  I have 2 CZ TSO's in .40 that have more than 10K rounds through each them and haven't experienced any issues with either the barrel or frames cracking.  Slide stop yes, each has broken 1-2 during this time. 

 

It could be that FTP is referring to the early barrel design of the CM, TS and perhaps TSO, where the 'peanunt' portion of the barrel was less robust.  These barrels were known to break at this spot.  I have not heard mention after the barrel redesign of barrels breaking on this pistols. 

Edited by muncie21

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A good friend of mine started with a checkmate, and ended up breaking multiple slide stops and 2 barrels. 

He switched to a 2011 platform and never looked back. 

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There is a lot more energy in a 9 major open gun than a 40 S&W limited gun. I haven't hear of many issues with the TS and lots of people shoot them here so they seem reliable.

 

10K rounds for a competitor is nothing to be honest. When you start shooting 20-50K rounds a year, the reliability goes way down.


They did add a little more material the the barrel where they were breaking but is a very tiny amount and does nothing for slide stop or frame breakage. Also, many guns had to have some of that new material removed of the slide would not go into battery after installation (I faced that too).

 

If the beefed up the frame, improved the barrel design and made parts more readily available, it would be a fantastic gun. I loved the gun but it didn't love me back! 

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5 hours ago, FTP_Shooting_Sports said:

The frame cracks on the right hand side through the little block that the slide stop goes through. The material there just seems too thin.

 

Unlike the 1911 where the barrel pivots on the barrel link, the CZ design has the slide stop and barrel taking a huge hit every time it comes out of battery. Over time, this breaks slide stops but it also breaks barrels and frames. I have the CZ in slow motion and it cycles almost twice as fast as a 1911. 

I also talked to people on the CZ shooting team and people from the CZ factory before giving up on the platform. I liked it a lot but now I have moved to the 2011 platform and gotten used to it :)

 

u always need to check ss pin for flatness . if it has small curve it can break right side of  the frame during recoil.

i heard about few TS  guns with over 100k in 40" and  over 150k  for 9mm minor (slide/frame). in ours club we use 9mm factory ammo and few TSO over 35k with no problems. TS platform it's the strongest cz  from all cz guns. and  shadow2 is the weakest 😀

what  cz shooting team told u about yours problems with  CM?   that only  u   in  this planet have  this problems?😀

 or told u that for your frame  they  used  recycled Fiat  instead of Skoda?😉

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Shooting 9mm minor, it would last forever in the TS frame. Shooting 9mm major is a whole other ball game. I spent a lot of time investigating the CM when I started having troubles and you can find story after story about people all leaving the platform for the same reason. The majority of the people that rave about the CM all have low round counts.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FTP_Shooting_Sports said:

Shooting 9mm minor, it would last forever in the TS frame. Shooting 9mm major is a whole other ball game. I spent a lot of time investigating the CM when I started having troubles and you can find story after story about people all leaving the platform for the same reason. The majority of the people that rave about the CM all have low round counts.

 

 

 

 

as i posted in past :cz engineers need to learn something about strength  material . it's  base  in mech.  eng. profession .😉

 

it's from cz official site:

It is known that the top Česká zbrojovka shooter Martin Kameníček, who participated in the development of this model, fired more than 150 000 rounds over five years from his CZ 75 TS CZECHMATE and only had to replace the barrel once, since after such a trial, its accuracy did start to decrease.

 

and it's not a joke.🤣 

ת×צ×ת ת××× × ×¢××ר âªpinokioâ¬â

Edited by yigal

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