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cheby

Czechmate vs 2011

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I know this has been discussed before but I want to revisit the topic once again.

I am thinking about shooting Open next season and deciding on the Open gun. I shoot CZs in Production now.

I understand that 2011s are the most common Open guns with endless custom parts and gunsmiths available. However, I do not think I have seen too many Open shooters who were able to finish a match without a malfunction of some kind. Looks like you need to have at least 4 Open guns and a competent gunsmith available 24/7 to be able to compete seriously -  and I am not interested in shooting club matches only occasionally. The idea of tuning magazines is preposterous as well. This has always been my main reservation against shooting Open.  Perhaps that is the way it is; however, I want to at least explore other options. 

Czechmate appears to be a more reliable gun that can be run without screwing around endlessly.  The question is what is the trade-off? Should I just get a 2011 like everybody else and deal with it?  I try to take the price out of the consideration but I am not ready to drop $5-6K on a custom gun either.

Thanks   

    

Edited by cheby

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ALL guns wear and eventually will have things break. I have no experience with cz open guns but would say they are inherently no more, or less reliable than a 2011 platform.  

 

Find a good of local open gun builder and you'll pay less than what you're thinking.  The biggest thing to think about is that there are less parts and gunsmith that work on cz's, something will eventually break, how you deal with getting it fixed is really the question

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59 minutes ago, cheby said:

I am thinking about shooting Open. I shoot CZs in Production now.

 

 I have seen too many Open shooters who were unable to finish a match without a malfunction of some kind. Looks like you need to have at least 4 Open guns and a competent gunsmith available 24/7 to be able to compete seriously -

 

 

 

If you love CZ's, I'd stick with them.    :)

 

I have shot a $2,700 TruBor 9mm Major for ten years, and it runs 100.0% unless

I need a new spring.   Nothing wrong with STI's, either.    :bow:

 

BUT, sounds like you'll be Very Happy with a CZ - have a blast with it    :)   

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Don't rule out the Tanfo Gold Team if you like CZs.  Under $2k without optic/mount when they are in stock.  I've been waiting for a 9mm or .38 SC to come available.

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I had an STI, now have a Czechmate and I love it. It will do all you need it to and it runs. You will however probably have to tune the big stick which involves pinching the top of the magazine where it tapers down into single stack below the feed lips. Mine was causing rounds to nose dive until I did this fix, now it runs 100 percent. Just be aware that the CZ will break slide stops eventually but the gun comes with extras so no biggie. Plus if you shoot 3 gun or like Limited minor you will have an awesome sight tracker with a 1.5lb trigger. It really is a better deal than the Tanfo or the STI for that matter. I have owned a Gold Team in 38 super and it was pretty violent and extremely loud at 170 or above PF, it was designed for the 160 PF of IPSC so it is really hard to make major if you buy one in 9mm.

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17 minutes ago, MrPostman said:

I had an STI, now have a Czechmate and I love it. It will do all you need it to and it runs. You will however probably have to tune the big stick which involves pinching the top of the magazine where it tapers down into single stack below the feed lips. Mine was causing rounds to nose dive until I did this fix, now it runs 100 percent. Just be aware that the CZ will break slide stops eventually but the gun comes with extras so no biggie. Plus if you shoot 3 gun or like Limited minor you will have an awesome sight tracker with a 1.5lb trigger. It really is a better deal than the Tanfo or the STI for that matter. I have owned a Gold Team in 38 super and it was pretty violent and extremely loud at 170 or above PF, it was designed for the 160 PF of IPSC so it is really hard to make major if you buy one in 9mm.

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Thank you!

A few questions:

1. Did you replace the magwell? Safety?

2. Compared to an STI, does it shoot flat? Is the recoil impulse different

3. Do you have to load shorter?

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Thank you!
A few questions:
1. Did you replace the magwell? Safety?
2. Compared to an STI, does it shoot flat? Is the recoil impulse different
3. Do you have to load shorter?
I left the factory magwell on it, works fine. I did replace the left side safety with the CZC extended one. Now I can ride my thumb on it and it sits a tad higher thsn the stock one so my support hand thumb will rest under it.

It will shoot flat with the factory compensator, I am shooting 8.4 grains of HS6, 115 grain Xtreme HPCB, CCI SPP and OAL 1.150. Gun shoots great with this load. I am however testing some other loads with N105 and AA#7.

FYI Slide weight is 10.4 oz, STI factory slide weight is 12.5 oz, so the reciprocating mass is much less.

Load length is magazine dependent, 1.165" is about the max.

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I just bought some LOK grips for it, the factory are just too thin for me. I bought the palm swell ones which fit my hand much better. Can't do that with a STI :D

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Hello: I would try to shoot both guns. The CZ trigger is just a weird type of feeling to me. I also have seen that the CZ barrel material wears if the pistol is shot a lot. I have seen guys buy the CZ and end up with a 2011 which they end up liking more. Another option for you maybe a Carry Optics setup? Since you shoot a CZ in Production why not just get a Carry optics setup pistol. Thanks, Eric

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I also have had both, where I now shoot a czechmate and I am not switching back. The czechmate has never let me down and always goes bang. My Czechmate has had close to 10K rds through it, and it still functions like it is brand new. Adjustments that I have done to my czechmate  was put on a RTS2 scope, straight trigger, and enlarged mag well (as you can see in my avatar).

When you travel to shoot a 300 rd match, you want a gun that is reliable and that you have full confidence in. The flattest shooting gun is not much use if is not 100% reliable.

Edited by abb1

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the CZ plain works, always. 
2011 is to me a better grip and ergonomics. if done properly they last. a lot of times they are not. 

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I'd like to think I can weigh in with some authority here as I own, and have owned, dozens of Open guns (CZ, Tanfoglios, and 2011s) in 9mm and 38.

 

My Czechmate is my go-to Open gun, it's bone stock (except the Cheely mount and rubber grips), it has a sub 2lb trigger, and it always works.  When I first got it I experienced random nosedives with hollow points (which I believe can be fixed with mag tuning), but I opted to switch to round nose bullets and haven't had an issue since (never touched the mags).  With RN 115gr bullets I've loaded as long 1.180", but I typically load 1.160"-1.170".

 

Now for the downsides:

-it's heavy, 48-50oz w/o mag depending on the grips and optic mount, interestingly heavy, steel gripped, 2011s seem to be coming back into style, so maybe this isn't all bad, but the 4oz steel comp does make it a touch nose heavy.

-not the flattest shooting comp design, I'm slightly biased here because I believe I've shot some of the flattest combinations out there, the CM shoots just as flat as your average 2011, but the best comps on the market, combined with ports in the barrel shoot slightly flatter.

-some 2011 shooters (like Eric above), aren't crazy about the hinge trigger, but if you're a CZ guy you'll love it.

 

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I'm almost done with what I'd like to call "the ultimate Czechmate" which is a half inch longer, six ounces lighter, is stroked and sports an aluminum cone version of Jared's CFD comp:

 

597ae93d3fe56_TSCM2.thumb.jpg.71acf4a82c9f7d2275e74fbeaf05f0c8.jpg597ae9b9032e3_TSCM.thumb.jpg.71e9a49a5cd04b74c2201a2292211b54.jpg

 

I've shot it the last few matches and really love it!  I plan to drill two 3/16" holes in the barrel, drill a ball detent for the racker, and get it coated.

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Looks awesome!

I actually like heavier guns.  I have recently transitioned to Shadow 2s from Shadows and while my transitions were a little funky at first, I really dig the extra weight now.

I have shot 2011 Open guns and like their ergonomics and triggers. My biggest concern as I stated in my OP, is their high maintenance nature. Being a CZ shooter, I like the idea of CM as an Open gun... Is it possible to replace a comp on the CM?

     

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22 minutes ago, cheby said:

Is it possible to replace a comp on the CM?

 

I like to say "anything is po$$ible :roflol:

 

Seriously though, it's not the cost as much as finding someone with the ability and the willingness.  I've been poking around a little looking for someone to mass produce lightweight CM comps to no avail.

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My steel gripped STI was a few ounces heavier than my Czechmate, it was as reliable but then I know how to make them run. To be honest I just prefer the ergos of the Czechmate, plus not having to drop $400+ on a grip to make it heavier is a plus also. Sharp looking gun Atlas, I hope that new comp lasts for a long time.

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1 hour ago, MrPostman said:

I hope that new comp lasts for a long time.

 

I have way too many guns to wear anything out! :roflol:

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I have had both.  I sold the CZ Open for no other reason than I was very limited in the parts and comps I could get for it.  I loved the gun, and it ran fine.

 

I switched to a 2011.  It runs fine.  Absolutely no issues.  The OP's statement most 2011 Open guns won't complete a match without failure is just plain BS.   Once I found out the OAL that mine likes, no issues.  After a season of absolutely zero problems, I can across a reasonable deal on another 2011 Open gun.  So I bought it as a backup.  Other than sighting it in and running 500 rounds through it just to be sure it worked, it hasn't been out of the case since.

 

I RO at two local clubs.  We have lots of Open Major shooters.  I have never seen a failure, except for one failure to feed.  That took about 5 seconds to clear.

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I have way too many guns to wear anything out! :roflol:
Yes you do ?

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1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

 

I RO at two local clubs.  We have lots of Open Major shooters.  I have never seen a failure, except for one failure to feed.  That took about 5 seconds to clear.

LOL I RO at few clubs as well including major matches. I find it amazing that you" have never seen a failure". BTW 5 sec FTF is kind of a big deal for me:-)

Edited by cheby

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3 hours ago, kneelingatlas said:

 

I like to say "anything is po$$ible :roflol:

 

Seriously though, it's not the cost as much as finding someone with the ability and the willingness.  I've been poking around a little looking for someone to mass produce lightweight CM comps to no avail.

 

Send me some specs for what you are thinking for dimensions and material.  I might be willing to do some work.  

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46 minutes ago, aandabooks said:

 

Send me some specs for what you are thinking for dimensions and material.  I might be willing to do some work.  

 

That would be great!

 

I'll be back in town this weekend and I'll send you a message.

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I was in the same boat as the OP. I have been banging away on a CZC 2010 Shadow custom, but due to old age and crappy close in vision I was looking to go to a red dot gun. I decided to leave the Shadow alone and bite the bullet and go total retard on an open gun. Mkay, so since I love CZ ergos, I decided to get a Czechmate. This was January of 2017, due to weather I started shooting it in April. 

 

The good stuff is that Open is fun, the Czechmate just runs,  the red dot is really cool for old blind goofballs like me and I've learned a lot about my trigger press watching the dot.

 

The bad stuff is that the grip frame is NOT the same as your Shadow. The Czechmate was indexing slightly high for me, and I was having trouble finding the dot. I finally got pissed enough that I yanked out the belt sander and removed the fake checkering front and back, and slightly reprofiled the back to make the thing index. You will most likely need to tune your mags, or just send them to Grams like I did and have him do it. While you are mailing stuff to Grams, you can toss in your barrels and have him throat them, or you can order a throater from Manson and do them yourself. Replace the springs and followers with either Grams or CZC, and the base pads from CZC are the bomb. I ordered a CZC magwell, but have not installed it. On my Czechmate, I will need to cut the TS magwell grooves as my Czechmate doesn't have them and that is the only way the CZC magwell will mount. Also, if you go with the CZC magwell you will need to replace the grips. I've been using the factory magwell enough and I'm sticking with it. In my case, the factory magwell is larger than the frame opening, so it looks like I will be filing and sanding on the frame some more in the near future. Plan on running the racker on the opposite side, or bend or replace it. Finally, after three months I have learned to not reload after 10 rounds or run a big stick empty because I feel like I have unlimited boolits.

 

There are three Czechmates at my club matches, including mine. All have been tweaked in the manners above to their respective owner's satisfactions. All just run, no excuses. The 2011 guys, not so much. There always seem to be a few having problems. This isn't to say you won't have learning experiences with a Czechmate, I sure did. But once it gets set up and tuned, it just runs. 4K rounds and counting for me.

 

Oh, and by the way when you switch back to your Shadow, your going to find that it feels light as a feather, and transitions like a plastic gun that went on a diet. I shoot my Shadow better now than I ever did.

 

 

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16 hours ago, JWBaldree said:

I've learned a lot about my trigger press watching the dot.

 

......

Oh, and by the way when you switch back to your Shadow, your going to find that it feels light as a feather, and transitions like a plastic gun that went on a diet. I shoot my Shadow better now than I ever did.

 

 

This is exactly the reason why I am thinking of shooting Open for a while..

Thanks Jim, great post

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For you it seems the choice is obvious, not based on gun reliability but the fact that you already shoot a CZ. A 2011 open gun will run many thousands of rounds trouble free. I shoot 2011s in Limited and was hesitant about moving to Open because I had similar concerns, I picked up a used gun here on the classifieds and after some minor changes It has been perfect for the last year probably 20K rounds. Magazines can be a pain with a 2011 but overall they are great guns. I know some guys who run CZs and are very pleased with them so I think you will enjoy open it is fun and there are things to be learned from shooting a dot.

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