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P320 Voluntary Upgrade, Will you do it?

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21 hours ago, Quack said:

 have you ever thought about the Limited and Open 2011's that have the grip safeties pinned? IMO, the chances of a gun going off when dropped is higher with 2011's with pinned grip safeties than the P320's

This might be true and while it is debatable if "the chances of a gun going off when dropped is higher with 2011's with pinned grip safeties than the P320's", there is one important difference. 1911s and 2011s may go off while hitting ground with their muzzle, therefore, potentially discharging into the ground. In case of 320, it is quite opposite.

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That's from the inertia of the firing pin, but what about trigger bounce, which would be muzzle up.

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On 8/14/2017 at 8:35 PM, Blue Jacket said:

I registered both of mine.  Though I have to be honest, I will probably sell them both once I get them back from SIG.  I couldn't sell them now with a clean conscious with that defect.  

 

For me dumping them is principle.  SIG had to have know about this for some time, otherwise why did the govt pistols and the new X5 already have the new FCU.  

 

Good thing I shoot CZ in USPSA and 3 gun  competitions.  I am pretty sure I'll never buy a SIG again.

 

I do wonder how the trigger pull will be effected with the upgrade.  That's why I purchased them in the first place.  It will also be be interesting to see how Bruce Gray handles this, I have two of his triggers that now have questionable value.  One is still in the bag.  Apex is doing good by consumers and offering a refund or at least a credit toward another product.  I had one of their flat triggers in my parts bin.  

 

Time will tell, and from what I hear about SIG it could be awhile.  Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket, 3 pistols recalled in on year.  I have a Ruger MK IV, though its back from them already.  Had a very positive experience on that repair.  Ruger probably only had it 10 days.

I have owned sigs since the 229 came out- and as a past armour for sig- ill never sell mine- or the 320

Edited by Rolex
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9 hours ago, Quack said:

That's from the inertia of the firing pin, but what about trigger bounce, which would be muzzle up.

 

How often does that happen? I don't own a Lim or Open gun but on my custom 1911s triggers and trigger shoes are lightened to a minimal weight and there is no trigger bar with its weight attached to them. From what I understand of SIG recall, their primary solution is to lighten the entire lock work and that should be sufficient. Aren't game 1911/2011 already set with a very light components. 

That's an honest question. I am aware of muzzle down drop discharges and testing on series 70 guns but never heard of trigger bounce drop discharges.

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On 8/16/2017 at 2:29 PM, Quack said:


As for the folks that are saying it's unsafe because it can unintentionally go off if dropped at a certain angle, have you ever thought about the Limited and Open 2011's that have the grip safeties pinned? IMO, the chances of a gun going off when dropped is higher with 2011's with pinned grip safeties than the P320's

Below is the post from a different forum addressing this issue. I think it is spot-on:

 

In 100 years of those non drop safe guns we have heard of them going off when dropped, even with very lethal outcomes, but not in any alarming rates despite a very large number of those guns in circulation. The 320 has been on the market only for three-four years and according to SIG's admission, there were 4 discharges in last year alone. Whatever SIG's apologists say about rarity of this event (500,000 guns sold etc), it actually may represent a significant rate of drop discharges. From a statistical analysis standpoint, the denominator should be a number of 320 dropped in a year, we don't have it but we should presume that dropping guns is not that common. The numerator is 4 but we actually don't know that either; it may be higher (underreporting bias) but it is unlikely to be less. That drop discharge rate could be actually in 1-4% rate, for all I know.

It is distinctly possible that 320 in its current form is no less safe that a series 70 1911 but there is a possibility that it isn't. Regardless, the latest in a firearm design should be clearly safer that a 100 year old design yet there are doubts, as there are doubts that it is safer than 30 year Glock design with millions in circulation and barely any reports of drop discharges.

In regards to the culpability and litigation, I am nearly speechless that SIG has chosen to "hide" behind the ANSI testing standards vs real life occurrences. In my line of work post-release device safety failures have costed manufacturers huge settlements even if devices had passed all safety standards during the development and received independent pre-release approvals. Based on these precedents, I believe that SIG will get their ass handed out to them in courts with their ANSI and NIJ standards if somebody gets injured with their "safe as is" 320. The instructors and match organizers may or may not be found negligent, depending on the case, but they will be sucked into the litigation. SIG calling it a voluntary upgrade is both a character flaw and a mistake. I am not an attorney but, having been detailed in numerous device safety recalls, I would advice trainers, ranges and match organizers to distance themselves from 320s (and any gun that is acknowledged to be unsafe in any way by its manufacturer) until a proven fix is implemented.

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There are NO required standards for testing firearms.  The ANSI tests are voluntary in terms of use and are NOT purported to be exhaustive.  They are but one way to test and will not serve the same type of benefit in court as CFRs or Codes do when their threshold is met.

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Absent any required [safety] standards or [testing] requirements , should this issue ever arise in court, the factors that become relevant are "reasonable" expectations (usually defined by expert witnesses and generally based on historical performances of similar devices or products), degree of risk and potential consequences to the users, damages that have already occurred,  company's openness and willingness to correct the problem, and perhaps some other factors. 

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YVK, yes.  It goes back to the safety hierarchy, FMEA and common design practices as it relates to products.  With Firearms, it is possible that the "sophisticated user" principles may be applied, but that would be user dependant and depend on the venue as well.

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Assuming this is an armorer level task, it would be great if a local P320 armorer could complete the upgrade for customers.

It is not.

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On 8/15/2017 at 10:41 AM, BeltFed said:

I was having trouble registering for the upgrade on the computer, so I had to do it by phone. No real issues.

I'm waiting for the M17 to hit the shelves now.

1 month, and still waiting.

 

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Internet rumor had mentioned that last Friday would be the launch date for call tags.

I spoke to one of the reps Friday about the forthcoming tags. Bottom line is SIG isn't ready yet, logistics wise, to get all the guns back and get them out again in short order.

So no news is good news? Hopefully they'll have it all figured out in another week or two.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

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The email also noted, "We will begin sending information and labels required for returning your P320 throughout October and November."    I wouldn't expect to hear anything else until "throughout October and November."  

 

Frankly, I'm surprised to actually see it that soon. I can't imagine the logistics behind this.

Edited by NewColonial

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18 minutes ago, GordySig said:

Got my RMA numbers and labels this evening. They will get boxed up and dropped off at FedEx on Monday. 

+1

 

Off to New Hampshire tomorrow

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27 minutes ago, GordySig said:

Got my RMA numbers and labels this evening. They will get boxed up and dropped off at FedEx on Monday. 

Awesome, so now it's time to see how long it will take sig to fix them up...

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Multiple pistols but so far only one label. I wonder if the guns are being returned by type/configuration.

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2 hours ago, Tokarev said:

Multiple pistols but so far only one label. I wonder if the guns are being returned by type/configuration.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
 

Best I can figure it is order that was enrolled on web site list. Got mine last night for an X5.

 

Registered my X-Carry a month after the X-5  - will see when that one come in.

 

I am still "stuck" with an RX that I sent to Gray Guns for the Competition Package - GGI has yet to answer up on how that will be handled; through them or special to SIG as a GGI modified 320.

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I sent one of mine off today. I registered the second one a week later but haven't got the email on that one yet.

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Interestingly my X5 is the only one I've received a tag for. Is Sig doing it by registration date or model type?

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