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P320 Voluntary Upgrade, Will you do it?


Sig0431

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I'm sure this has been posted in one of these threads, but what do you guys think of this:

 

“Drop safe,” Cohen explained, “Those two words don’t exist together. No gun is drop safe. It’s a function of angle, height and surface. If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling. Inherently guns are not meant to be dropped, and are unsafe when dropped.”

 

 

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Ok, thanks for clarification.  Guess it's just a pet peeve.  I see a lot of people using ND instead of AD/UD when there's no indication of negligence.  As sfinney pointed out, the terms are not interchangeable. 

 

On the firing when dropped issue, I'm surprised that the slight difference in trigger weight renders this a non-issue with the X5.  If I were working for Sig, I'd strongly recommend that they "fix" the X5s as well.  If it does happen with an X5 (probably only a matter of time) and someone gets hurt, they'll sure have a hell of a time explaining that away.

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1 minute ago, MadhatRR said:

“Drop safe,” Cohen explained, “Those two words don’t exist together. No gun is drop safe. It’s a function of angle, height and surface. If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling. Inherently guns are not meant to be dropped, and are unsafe when dropped.”

 

Flawed reasoning.  There are plenty of guns that will not fire when dropped.  Also, how does making a gun safer "legitimize mishandling?"  That's just total bs that probably came from some gun magazine writer/expert.

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The Sig P320 is not the only gun that would be banned if random drops could cause firing.  Lots of 1911/2011s out there that could go bang if dropped perfectly.... the reason Series 80 parts came to being. 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Also, how does making a gun safer "legitimize mishandling?"  That's just total bs that probably came from some gun magazine writer/expert.

 

I see his meaning as referring to actions like how the heavier "NY" Glock trigger was used to replace better training.  Did the triggers need to be heavier to be safe?  Not really.  But by increasing the pull weight and "making it safer", they essentially legitimized the lack of training they gave their department.

 

Now, please don't take that to mean I think Sig doesn't need to fix this.  They do, and they are.  More importantly, the industry needs to revise their testing requirements for all manufacturers.  I'm sure all the other manufacturers are in their labs contemplating drop angles they weren't required to test before.  Especially those angles where inertia works against the spring tension on their sear/disconnector.

Edited by JAFO
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58 minutes ago, Sig0431 said:

Does anyone think or know if the USPSA may temporarily ban the P320 due to this drop issue?

 

While you aren't allowed to disable the primary safety in USPSA, how many guns currently used in matches are no longer "drop-safe" thanks to action work, replacement part tolerances, modifications, etc?  Is a 1911/2011 more drop-safe with a working grip safety, or a pinned one?  (I don't own one, so this is a genuine question.)  Once you start modifying a gun, all of the factory safety guarantees may no longer be valid.  My point is just that there could already be guns currently in use that would discharge if dropped on a stage just right.

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48 minutes ago, sfinney said:

The Sig P320 is not the only gun that would be banned if random drops could cause firing.  Lots of 1911/2011s out there that could go bang if dropped perfectly.... the reason Series 80 parts came to being. 

 

 

There are 46,000,000 different angle combinations (so I've read) that you can drop a gun.

If people want "industry standards" to check all of them to have a truly "drop safe" firearm then I have a feeling the cost of guns is going to go up. A lot. 

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In response to my question of if the USPSA may place any ban on the P320. I have received the following from Mike Foley, President of USPSA

 

"Thanks for your inquiry.  We do not currently have any information on the subject.  USPSA does not certify competitor equipment, and defers to the current rulebook only at this time."

 

Most of you are more experienced than myself but after reading the handbook I could only find the following that could apply to this:

 

5.1.6 Handguns must be serviceable and safe. Range Officers may demand examination of a competitor's handgun or related equipment, at any time, to check they are functioning safely. If any such item is declared unserviceable or unsafe by a Range Officer, it must be withdrawn from the match until the item is repaired to the satisfaction of the Range Master.

 

It seems that the decision rests on the Range Officer alone. I only ask this as I have met a few (actually lost count) glock fanatics that love any chance they can to highlight a flaw in a Sig. I have also met a few Range Officers like this as well.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Sig0431 said:

In response to my question of if the USPSA may place any ban on the P320. I have received the following from Mike Foley, President of USPSA

 

"Thanks for your inquiry.  We do not currently have any information on the subject.  USPSA does not certify competitor equipment, and defers to the current rulebook only at this time."

 

Most of you are more experienced than myself but after reading the handbook I could only find the following that could apply to this:

 

5.1.6 Handguns must be serviceable and safe. Range Officers may demand examination of a competitor's handgun or related equipment, at any time, to check they are functioning safely. If any such item is declared unserviceable or unsafe by a Range Officer, it must be withdrawn from the match until the item is repaired to the satisfaction of the Range Master.

 

It seems that the decision rests on the Range Officer alone. I only ask this as I have met a few (actually lost count) glock fanatics that love any chance they can to highlight a flaw in a Sig. I have also met a few Range Officers like this as well.

 

 

The RO would have to find some demonstrable  defect in the particular pistol. Saying all of a certain brand are unsafe because of internet (or otherwise) stories, would be a stretch (even for the most rabid Sig hater).

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Just now, Bkreutz said:

The RO would have to find some demonstrable  defect in the particular pistol. Saying all of a certain brand are unsafe because of internet (or otherwise) stories, would be a stretch (even for the most rabid Sig hater).

 

I get what you are saying there but the rule book does not dictate anything to your point so "if" I were to have an RO saying the P320 is unsafe I don't know of any leverage I would have to counter his claim per the USPSA rule book. Granted this situation may never happen but just curious to learn.

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Just now, Sig0431 said:

 

I get what you are saying there but the rule book does not dictate anything to your point so "if" I were to have an RO saying the P320 is unsafe I don't know of any leverage I would have to counter his claim per the USPSA rule book. Granted this situation may never happen but just curious to learn.

Just have him/her demonstrate the "unsafe" condition. If they can't, then shoot on. RO's aren't the last word, they have to back up their decisions by rule. 5.1.6 says that after examination, the handgun has to be declared unsafe or unserviceable. To me that means something has to be found during the "inspection", and they have to demonstrate the unsafe condition. If they still persist, get the RM or MD involved.

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25 minutes ago, MadhatRR said:

The p320 still passes industry standard safety tests. So technically, I don't see how they can be banned. (Just my opinion)

 

I shot in a small local steel match last night, and other than being the butt of a few jokes, no problems. 

smh

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4 hours ago, Magsz said:

Bruce...sorry Alma, so are you saying that the X5 is drop safe?  You seem to know everything there is to know about Sig's so what say you?

 

There are tons of videos out there that say otherwise but as I said before, you've got the inside track at Sig so you would know better than the rest of the internet/world.

The Omaha outdoors (or whatever) video couldn't replicate this issue with the X5. As I understand the X5 has the lightened striker and a lighter trigger which helps to minimize it. Also the longer beavertail changes the angle at which the slide and back of the grip come into contact with the ground. It's possible that since you can't get that perfect negative thirty degree strike that the X5 is not susceptible. 

Edited by alma
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From reading a couple threads here and on a couple other boards I think this should be accurate:

SIG P320 is not exactly the same as the XM17. Some posts suggest that the two guns are identical or only differ in some corrosion finishes or because the 17 has a manual safety. But it sounds like there are some internal parts differences.

The DPD memo/suspension came about based on outdated language in an owner's manual and not due to any actual event. This was clarified by SIG and was the initial official statement that started all the fun.

Omaha Outdoors conducts their own testing by dropping a variety of pistols from a variety of angles and finds the "sweet spot" that has continued all the fun. They make a YouTube video and make it public just a few days after the SIG official statement. The SIG statement was not a result of the OO YouTube video but rather a result of the DPD memo.

Internet explodes with accusations and speculation. Some is probably correct but most is probably not.

SIG announces that they're going to initiate a voluntary upgrade program (that'll probably morph into a recall) but provides no real info on the program. Nobody knows who's going to be expected to pay shipping, what parts will be used (modified trigger with tab safety? M17 revamped internal parts? Something else?) so speculation continues. Anger builds over lack of info.

Bruce Gray is denounced as a hack and a shill but says he's still working with SIG to figure out a way to make and sell his parts in a way that is compatible with whatever SIG plans to do. Apex is also working to figure out the aftermarket trigger stuff.

Everyone is basically in limbo until Monday when SIG is expected to be releasing The Plan.

So that's pretty much a rundown of what I've read on three different boards and probably five or six threads. And it seems to me we can boil the people posting down into three groups. There are those who don't like the 320 for several reasons and are happy to see all these problems because the Army passed on the Glock. Then there are those who probably don't own a 320 but are acting outraged and offended by SIG and all the confusion surrounding everything to include SIG's confusion on handling the situation. These guys don't own a 320 but are outraged regardless. The last group is 320 owners who just want to know WTF is going on and get their guns updated and fixed without hassle.

Oh. And somewhere along the way a police officer in CT drops his gun while it was in a holster and takes a bullet to the knee. The officer may have tried to catch the gun or it may have landed in the sweet spot. We just don't know at this point.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

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16 minutes ago, BillR1 said:

 

Wow..."outlaw" seems to be the correct term here. 

And ironic since most 3gun matches allow damn near anything. My guess is it's the host club's decision.

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Does anyone think or know if the USPSA may temporarily ban the P320 due to this drop issue?
Until Sig offers 320s for sale to the public with the new trigger shoe installed, do the new parts qualify for production division?

From appendix D4:

"Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OFM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OFM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and
triggers."
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This is pure speculation, but I'm guessing this will be similar to the Takata airbag problem.  They will make sure that the production line can resume with the upgrade parts before they start upgrading previously purchased products.  And then, LEO agencies will probably (and, IMHO, should) get taken care of first.  So by the time upgrade parts are available for the average USPSA shooter, they probably will be available on new 320's.

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This is pure speculation, but I'm guessing this will be similar to the Takata airbag problem.  They will make sure that the production line can resume with the upgrade parts before they start upgrading previously purchased products.  And then, LEO agencies will probably (and, IMHO, should) get taken care of first.  So by the time upgrade parts are available for the average USPSA shooter, they probably will be available on new 320's.
Given my experience with Sig, it will take longer to get your pistol back than what they tell you up front.

On the recent MCX recall, two weeks turned into 6 months for the rifle we had for sale at the shop.
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good article:

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/11/sig-p320-problems-questions/:

 

"SIG owes the gun world some answers. We’ve seen behavior from them over the past nine days that is not only unbecoming of a major manufacturer (such as lying to a major police department), but bizarre and inexplicable (such as saying drop safeties “legitimize mishandling”)"

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57 minutes ago, cheby said:

good article:

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/11/sig-p320-problems-questions/:

 

"SIG owes the gun world some answers. We’ve seen behavior from them over the past nine days that is not only unbecoming of a major manufacturer (such as lying to a major police department), but bizarre and inexplicable (such as saying drop safeties “legitimize mishandling”)"

 

@cheby Your post on this topic thus far have been negative in nature and not focused on the topic "P320 Voluntary Upgrade, Will you do it?" From what I can tell you do not own a P320 or a Sig in general. You shoot CZ after having moved from shooting glocks (which could be the root cause of your continued negative posting, I heard it is a common side affect of glock owners). I myself own Glocks and Sig's so I assure you that it is possible to respect all brands of weapons and help support the community instead of causing negativity, you just have to try really really hard. haha all kidding aside....

 

While this is a free country and I can not stop you from posting in this topic, in the future I please ask that you refrain from posting and if you feel the uncontrollable desire to bash Sig, you start your own thread. If all else fails and you find that you continue to have unlimited free time with nothing better to do may I suggest the following to occupy your time:

 

- Dry fire drills

- Reloading ammo

- Cleaning your CZ

- Live fire drills

 

If you can not tell, I am joking with you in most of this and trying to keep this light hearted, please allow us current or potential Sig P320 owners to remain on topic.

 

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Grayguns statement concerning SIG SAUER P320 voluntary upgrade


Spray, Ore. (Aug. 10, 2017) As SIG SAUER[emoji768] detailed in their press release Tuesday, the P320 pistol does meet “U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) / Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI[emoji768]), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies.”

We have no reason to believe the pistol does not meet those accepted standards. That said, we are aware of the claims made earlier this week that some P320s may unintentionally discharge if the pistol is dropped in a specific way. SIG SAUER confirmed this noting “dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge.”

We are independently evaluating those claims here at Grayguns, and it appears that there is some merit to claims that some P320s may unintentionally discharge after being dropped at a specific angle. We strongly advise against attempting to test your own pistols, as this can be dangerous and may negatively affect the existing drop safety mechanisms. Self-testing may also void any warranties. Consequences for the handling or misuse of any firearm are the operator’s sole responsibility. Safe gun handling practices should be practiced at all times. Never rely upon any mechanical device for your safety.

As Grayguns provides aftermarket triggers and action work for the P320, we are obviously concerned and continuing to closely examine this serious issue. We are working closely with SIG SAUER on addressing concerns relating to Grayguns products and services in particular, to ensure that our mutual customers will be offered the most satisfactory options possible, and will provide additional information to our customers once it becomes available.

“As we have done for more than 30 years, Grayguns will always stand behind our work and the products we manufacture,” said Bruce Gray, president and founder of Grayguns Inc. “We will work diligently with our friends at SIG SAUER during the next few weeks to ensure all of our customers are confident in the products and services we provide.”

For more information on Grayguns, visit us at grayguns.com.


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