Do we need a rule regarding the number of shots on target

[jhgtyre]

Am I the only one who hates stages that have 3 or more hits required on a target?  I've heard lots of reason's for these kinds of stages but these are the ones that seem to come up most often:

• To increase the round count.
• To make it 6 shot friendly.
• Some clubs can't afford targets or don't have space for more.
• We want to force the reload so we can test your skill in that area.

I think all of those reasons are faulty and I'll say why in the same order.

• If you design a good stage it doesn't matter if the round count is low.  Adding shots/targets to a stage just to get more shots fired is a terrible idea every time.
• ICORE has a place for 6 shot guns where they are nice and safe from the mean old 7 and 8 shot guns.  Limited 6.  We don't need to design stages to cater to capacity anymore.  I know some people didn't like this change but it is what it is.
• Okay, so maybe THOSE clubs should have extra shots on targets but I don't shoot at any of those clubs and I still see this non-sense at State, Regional and National matches.  Surely at those matches we can afford targets and stands so we don't have to put up one target instead of multiples.
• Forcing reloads?  Really?  We are shooting guns that hold 6 or 8 rounds, WE RELOAD A LOT ALREADY.

 

Shooting targets more than twice means they get eaten up faster and need to be replaced more often.  At a lot of non ICORE majors I've been to they change out targets every few squads so that scoring is easier and more fair.  It's tough to call a tight shot if the line is completely covered in pasters.  Most of the ICORE majors I've attended were a bit lax in the target changing department.  I'm not trying to call anyone out on that particular issue but it is kind of a pain to shoot at a target that has been so obscured by pasters that you can't see the scoring lines.

 

I would love to see a rule stating that targets get two hits and no more.  Again I ask; am I the only one?

[GrumpyOne]

 Not an ICORE match, but today at our local USPSA match, we had 5 stages of 4 head shots in one array...near stage 3, you couldn't tell where the A zone or B zone was...and we changed the targets...and we only had 20 shooters. I can see where 3 per target in a large match would make it difficult to score.

[PatJones]

I like 3 per. Shoot 3,3,2, reload, 1,3,3. It's just anther shooting challenge.

1 or 4 shots or target can be fun too.

[jhgtyre]

14 minutes ago, PatJones said:

I like 3 per. Shoot 3,3,2, reload, 1,3,3. It's just anther shooting challenge.

1 or 4 shots or target can be fun too.

LOL, I almost added "It's FUN!" as one of the reasons I hear people say they design stages with 3 or more shots per target.  I've shot stages with 6 shots per target ( I believe there are classifiers with this) and I think that is just ballistic masturbation.  I do get the "it's fun" response but I guess I just don't see the fun in it myself.

[aandabooks]

I like a 3 shot per target stage occasionally.  Only really at the local level.  It's especially funny to listen to someone else shoot the stage and hear bang, bang.....bang.  Or the occasional guy who didn't listen to the WSB and when scoring every target has a mike called.  Takes a few targets before it dawns on them what happened.

[mchapman]

I like them sometimes because it makes you have to think about the stage and do something that you are not used to doing, that said I would not like to see two shots and only two shots,, I don't happen to be as good a shot as some of you and I like to have the option to make up a rushed or bad hit. Shots limited give me more issues LOL

 

[Bkreutz]

I see the occasional 1 per or 3 per in USPSA matches, never fails to catch a number of shooters (including me). Good exercise that makes me concentrate on my stage plan.

 

[Part_time_redneck]

After the beep the rule book & the WSB are the gospel. We all have to act accordingly. Yes they (1 or 3 best) are weird but they do keep us on our toes. The one shot on paper trips me up worse than three. 

 

Although a departure from the norm still level playing field for divisions IMO. Personally I like best 2, steel must fall. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

What's the difference if it's one, two or three shots per target ?

 

Just read the COF description, and do what it says.    

 

Long as everybody has to do the same thing.

[jcc7x7]

5 hours ago, jhgtyre said:

Am I the only one who hates stages that have 3 or more hits required on a target?  I've heard lots of reason's for these kinds of stages but these are the ones that seem to come up most often:

• To increase the round count.
• To make it 6 shot friendly.
• Some clubs can't afford targets or don't have space for more.
• We want to force the reload so we can test your skill in that area.

I think all of those reasons are faulty and I'll say why in the same order.

• If you design a good stage it doesn't matter if the round count is low.  Adding shots/targets to a stage just to get more shots fired is a terrible idea every time.
• ICORE has a place for 6 shot guns where they are nice and safe from the mean old 7 and 8 shot guns.  Limited 6.  We don't need to design stages to cater to capacity anymore.  I know some people didn't like this change but it is what it is.
• Okay, so maybe THOSE clubs should have extra shots on targets but I don't shoot at any of those clubs and I still see this non-sense at State, Regional and National matches.  Surely at those matches we can afford targets and stands so we don't have to put up one target instead of multiples.
• Forcing reloads?  Really?  We are shooting guns that hold 6 or 8 rounds, WE RELOAD A LOT ALREADY.

 

Shooting targets more than twice means they get eaten up faster and need to be replaced more often.  At a lot of non ICORE majors I've been to they change out targets every few squads so that scoring is easier and more fair.  It's tough to call a tight shot if the line is completely covered in pasters.  Most of the ICORE majors I've attended were a bit lax in the target changing department.  I'm not trying to call anyone out on that particular issue but it is kind of a pain to shoot at a target that has been so obscured by pasters that you can't see the scoring lines.

 

I would love to see a rule stating that targets get two hits and no more.  Again I ask; am I the only one?

Learn how to design GOOD stages ! Then the foolishness of 1 per target or 3 or 6 is not relevant in any world

If we are talking Classifier fine, it's all goof ball stuff in general any how.  But it's what we have to rank each other.

No need for the goof ball stuff in a regular COF.

IF they want to shoot 3 gun ( one good hit per target) or "id" pa with a COF that can only be shot one way my suggestion is to go to those matches and have a great time.

 

There is no need to bring a baseball to a football game!  If you like another discipline go for it please don't try to interject it into ICORE. ETC ETC ETC

 

Summary, after the rant !!!! LOL

Not a fan of three on a target

[PatJones]

Learn how to design GOOD stages ! Then the foolishness of 1 per target or 3 or 6 is not relevant in any world
If we are talking Classifier fine, it's all goof ball stuff in general any how.  But it's what we have to rank each other.
No need for the goof ball stuff in a regular COF.
IF they want to shoot 3 gun ( one good hit per target) or "id" pa with a COF that can only be shot one way my suggestion is to go to those matches and have a great time.
 
There is no need to bring a baseball to a football game!  If you like another discipline go for it please don't try to interject it into ICORE. ETC ETC ETC
 
Summary, after the rant !!!! LOL
Not a fan of three on a target

I fail to see why 2 per paper defines good stage design.

[jcc7x7]

5 hours ago, PatJones said:

7 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

Learn how to design GOOD stages ! Then the foolishness of 1 per target or 3 or 6 is not relevant in any world
If we are talking Classifier fine, it's all goof ball stuff in general any how.  But it's what we have to rank each other.
No need for the goof ball stuff in a regular COF.
IF they want to shoot 3 gun ( one good hit per target) or "id" pa with a COF that can only be shot one way my suggestion is to go to those matches and have a great time.
 
There is no need to bring a baseball to a football game!  If you like another discipline go for it please don't try to interject it into ICORE. ETC ETC ETC
 
Summary, after the rant !!!! LOL
Not a fan of three on a target

I fail to see why 2 per paper defines good stage design.

AS a Joke Only    " Look a little harder!"

[mikeAZ]

NO MORE RULES for ICORE!!!!....  Look at USPSA, went from a small hand book to a online monster, now, sometimes several "rules" can be used for a single infraction....Safety is still the main objective.....We are there to shoot and have fun, what is an extra round fired cost?....A little of your time....

[PatJones]

NO MORE RULES for ICORE!!!!....  Look at USPSA, went from a small hand book to a online monster, now, sometimes several "rules" can be used for a single infraction....Safety is still the main objective.....We are there to shoot and have fun, what is an extra round fired cost?....A little of your time....

Most of that large USPSA rule book comes from weird situations that happened at big matches. It's nice to know how things will be handled before I leave for nationals.

[Bkreutz]

46 minutes ago, mike NM said:

NO MORE RULES for ICORE!!!!....  Look at USPSA, went from a small hand book to a online monster, now, sometimes several "rules" can be used for a single infraction....Safety is still the main objective.....We are there to shoot and have fun, what is an extra round fired cost?....A little of your time....

 

Online monster??, the paper version is 1/4" thick, not a monster IMO.

[Alaskan454]

I like the current ICORE rules and occasionally take advantage of designing stages with 1 shot on target.  If you do 3 or more just change them out more often.

[matteekay]

On 8/6/2017 at 7:50 AM, Bkreutz said:

 

Online monster??, the paper version is 1/4" thick, not a monster IMO.

 

And, like, 33% of that is just the Production gear appendix, lol.

 

I don't mind the occasional 3 on target. Actually, Pat designed a COF that way a few months ago at ICORE and I thought it was one of the better stages. It definitely makes you concentrate.

[matteekay]

On 8/5/2017 at 3:46 PM, jhgtyre said:

I've shot stages with 6 shots per target ( I believe there are classifiers with this) and I think that is just ballistic masturbation.  

 

USPSA Classifier "Can You Count?" is two strings of five shots on the back target, reload, five shots on the front target. And they're very close. I just did that one with a .44 and boy was it fun, lol.

 

Ballistic masturbation, though...? Well, I did say "fun", right?  Because if it's not, you're doing it wrong.

[jhgtyre]

3 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

USPSA Classifier "Can You Count?" is two strings of five shots on the back target, reload, five shots on the front target. And they're very close. I just did that one with a .44 and boy was it fun, lol.

 

Ballistic masturbation, though...? Well, I did say "fun", right?  Because if it's not, you're doing it wrong.

Yeah don't get me started on how silly some of the classifiers are  

[varminter22]

Many ICORE shooters chastise the USPSA rule book.  And, at one time, I sort of agreed. 

 

But now, after shooting both disciplines for many years, I tend to generally believe the USPSA rule book is actually better. 

[jhgtyre]

On 8/21/2017 at 6:12 PM, varminter22 said:

Many ICORE shooters chastise the USPSA rule book.  And, at one time, I sort of agreed. 

 

But now, after shooting both disciplines for many years, I tend to generally believe the USPSA rule book is actually better. 

Well USPSA is successful and ICORE seems to be dying.  I bring these conversations up because I think there is something worth saving here.  IMHO if we continue as we have been the sport is dead.

[matteekay]

Do you actually think that having flexibility in the shots on target per COF is what's killing it?

[jhgtyre]

7 hours ago, matteekay said:

Do you actually think that having flexibility in the shots on target per COF is what's killing it?

No, I think MANY things are killing it.  Shots on target is just one thing that annoys me.  I posed the question to see if it annoys anyone else.  

 

Varminter22's comments regarding the USPSA rule book strike a chord with me because that sport is doing fine and I don't believe ICORE is.  Actually if we adopted USPSA's rulebook but kept our equipment divisions as they are I would be pretty happy.  

[matteekay]

2 hours ago, jhgtyre said:

Varminter22's comments regarding the USPSA rule book strike a chord with me because that sport is doing fine and I don't believe ICORE is.  Actually if we adopted USPSA's rulebook but kept our equipment divisions as they are I would be pretty happy.  

 

But... USPSA's rule book allows for varying shots on target depending on COF.

[motosapiens]

11 hours ago, jhgtyre said:

Well USPSA is successful and ICORE seems to be dying.  I bring these conversations up because I think there is something worth saving here.  IMHO if we continue as we have been the sport is dead.

 

perhaps the difference is that ICORE is for revolvers, and has nothing to do with shots per target. (fwiw, the last 3 or 4 major uspsa matches I've shot have all add at least one 3-shot per target stage).

 

Or maybe it's the 'confederation' part of ICORE that offends lefties, lol.

Edited August 23, 2017 by motosapiens