PCC Ready Position

[Sarge]

On 7/26/2017 at 8:01 AM, OPENB said:

No, he said the gun was a foot closer to the shoulder. Fat or skinny the belt goes around the waist at the same place unless one wears his pants pulled up to his nipples. I really don't see the issue. I'm not visualizing how a fat guy might have an advantage in the start position of buttstock touching belt. 

Bob, I THINK I sent you a PM.

[barrysuperhawk]

On 7/26/2017 at 3:24 PM, SJan said:

MD should use stock touching belt OR muzzle on X.  Not both. 

 

If they want to prevent outstretched gaming, they can add something like "standing directly in front of X"

 

At my weekly match, our Stage designer / MD absolutely HATES PCC with a passion normally reserved for criminals and democrats.  EVERY start is stock on belt AND muzzle on X, and the position of the X is usually such that PCC shooters are farther away from any shooting area than the pistol shooters would be.  For example imagine an 8' wide barricade with a port in the center, and hands on X's on either side of the port, so the shooter is more or less centered on the port.  The PCC starting position, however, is stock on belt,  over pointed at X on the EDGE of the barricade, requiring the PCC shooter to move 3-4 feet upon the start signal...  not all starts are that blatant, but it's about 50/50.

Edited August 3, 2017 by barrysuperhawk

[Sarge]

30 minutes ago, barrysuperhawk said:

 

At my weekly match, our Stage designer / MD absolutely HATES PCC with a passion normally reserved for criminals and democrats.  EVERY start is stock on belt AND muzzle on X, and the position of the X is usually such that PCC shooters are farther away from any shooting area than the pistol shooters would be.  For example imagine an 8' wide barricade with a port in the center, and hands on X's on either side of the port, so the shooter is more or less centered on the port.  The PCC starting position, however, is stock on belt,  over pointed at X on the EDGE of the barricade, requiring the PCC shooter to move 3-4 feet upon the start signal...  not all starts are that blatant, but it's about 50/50.

Doesn't matter since rifles only shoot against rifles.

[barrysuperhawk]

8 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Doesn't matter since rifles only shoot against rifles.

 

LOL, tell that to the open shooters at our club that are PISSED at the PCC guys for whooping them every week.  When an average C class shooter can pick up a PCC and hang with A class open guys, there are bound to be hard feelings.  The combined match results for last week had 8 PCC in the top 10.  The number one PCC (c shooter) smoked the next fastest guy (A class open) by over a second... on a 13 second stage.  This is small weekly club matches, not nationals...

[ELZEROGRANDE]

2 hours ago, barrysuperhawk said:

 

LOL, tell that to the open shooters at our club that are PISSED at the PCC guys for whooping them every week.  When an average C class shooter can pick up a PCC and hang with A class open guys, there are bound to be hard feelings.  The combined match results for last week had 8 PCC in the top 10.  The number one PCC (c shooter) smoked the next fastest guy (A class open) by over a second... on a 13 second stage.  This is small weekly club matches, not nationals...

Following, we too have noticed the trend at our local club matches. No hard feelings from me (cause i kinda suck).But Limited M class and Open A class have expressed it. When you have a rifle and 40 round mags, you are going to be hard to beat. 

[Hammer002]

4 hours ago, barrysuperhawk said:

 

LOL, tell that to the open shooters at our club that are PISSED at the PCC guys for whooping them every week.  When an average C class shooter can pick up a PCC and hang with A class open guys, there are bound to be hard feelings.  The combined match results for last week had 8 PCC in the top 10.  The number one PCC (c shooter) smoked the next fastest guy (A class open) by over a second... on a 13 second stage.  This is small weekly club matches, not nationals...

 

I have found this comes down to stage design.  I have been hearing and experiencing the same frustrations from the guys used to being at the top.  I started shooting PCC for fun about a month ago, and honestly, I think it has run its course for me.  I usually build one of our two stages at our weekly club shoot and have found hoser stages are great for PCC, but the Open guys can still compete.  The longer the distance, the more PCC friendly.  However, the more technical the stage, PCC begins to suffer fast.  Since beginning shooting PCC I have purposely made it pretty hard on myself with shooting around walls at hard angles, especially off hand, etc.  I shot one level II match with the PCC and came to the conclusion the guys who are actually good at Open are untouchable by lower classed PCC shooters.  As a matter of fact, I think Open division, overall, has the advantage over PCC at high level with well designed stages that aren't just putting up targets at a weekly shoot.  As for starting different divisions in completely different spots?  That's a no go.  I cant design a stage that has everyone starting "anywhere within fault lines," but limited starts "on Xs facing uprange."  The placement has to be the same.  Although I have seen some interesting things done to PCC shooters even within those boundaries.  lol.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Hammer002

[SJan]

Without quoting the last several posts

 

That MD sounds like a douche.

 

Yes PCC only compete against other PCC, officially. But we all like to look at Combined results because that's where the bragging comes from. 

 

It is obvious that a C-Class pistol shooter can pick up a PCC and really shine with it

[perttime]

I don't do USPSA but a few different things seem to work in other "long gun" sports. Gun at belt or hip level, in approximately horizontal position. Table top starts. If you don't have to worry about being fair to pistol shooters, butt of the long gun on shoulder and barrel approximately 45 degrees down works. So does long gun in a rack. Gun in a drawer might be difficult with long guns...

[MemphisMechanic]

3 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

I have found this comes down to stage design. 

 

I shot one level II match with the PCC and came to the conclusion the guys who are actually good at Open are untouchable by lower classed PCC shooters.  As a matter of fact, I think Open division, overall, has the advantage over PCC at high level with well designed stages that aren't just putting up targets at a weekly shoot.

 

EXACTLY.

 

I've been using PCC as an opportunity to get people to see there's a silver lining here. If your locals consist of four boring ports with four boring targets in each of them, especially with distance in there? PCC is going to smoke your Open & Limited guys.

 

However, propose some technical challenges in your stages:

 

Hard leans...

Situations that call for one-handed shooting...

Partial targets through a low port...

Tight close-quarters walls/barricades...

 

..and PCC falls behind open. Just like they have done at nationals and every single Area match so far.

 

If the handgun guys want to win they need to stop building boring straightforward hoser stages. In my opinion, that's a win-win!

 

My interest in PCC is in learning to operate a rifle in those awkward tight situations as opposed to just plinking at a square range, and we should all get to enjoy a physically and mentally challenging stage more often. Whether we shoot a handgun or a rifle.

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[Hammer002]

41 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

My interest in PCC is in learning to operate a rifle in those awkward tight situations as opposed to just plinking at a square range, and we should all get to enjoy a physically and mentally challenging stage more often. Whether we shoot a handgun or a rifle.

 

Funny you say that cause that was the reason I took it on as well.  I always thought a 9mm carbine would be the perfect house gun.  No.  No its not.  Lol.

[barrysuperhawk]

Any stage design that tries to punish one group of shooters is a bad stage design.  I shot single stack for years with stages requiring 10+ rounds from shooting positions, and it sucked them too.  

[XD Niner]

I don't understand why the Open and even Limited shooters would object to PCC's because they might be at the top of the overall scores.  Production, SS, L10 and even Carry Optics consistently finish below Open and Limited for equal level shooters.  I don't hear those shooters complaining because they know they're competing against others in their division.  Maybe the Open shooters (of which I am one) should be served some cheese with their whine.

[NOMADSS]

XD Niner

 

You nailed it SIR!!!! 

[barrysuperhawk]

1 hour ago, XD Niner said:

I don't understand why the Open and even Limited shooters would object to PCC's because they might be at the top of the overall scores.  Production, SS, L10 and even Carry Optics consistently finish below Open and Limited for equal level shooters.  I don't hear those shooters complaining because they know they're competing against others in their division.  Maybe the Open shooters (of which I am one) should be served some cheese with their whine.

Considering that I was the c class shooter from my example, I was trying not to rub anything in...

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: The ones that are not liking PCC around here are the Production guys since they are getting pushed down the score board. Those Production guys that are now shooting PCC are doing very well around here and are having a lot of fun. I am mostly shooting Open and PCC and really like the challenge of both divisions. I think shooting one is helping me with the other and vice versa. Thanks, Eric

[MemphisMechanic]

Production guy who actually enjoys having PCC in the game over here.

 

I'm very comfortable handling a handgun but put an AR in my hands and the weapon that's supposed to be a better choice when your life is on the line ... has me feeling like I'm all thumbs.

 

I'll be building a PCC soon and working with it until I can run and gun pretty well with an AR, too. Or at least load, shoulder, and unload it without having to remember where all the fancy buttons and levers are located on this tactical fighting ninja weapon system platform.

Edited August 3, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[Bullet56A]

On 8/3/2017 at 6:40 PM, MemphisMechanic said:

Production guy who actually enjoys having PCC in the game over here.

 

I'm very comfortable handling a handgun but put an AR in my hands and the weapon that's supposed to be a better choice when your life is on the line ... has me feeling like I'm all thumbs.

 

I'll be building a PCC soon and working with it until I can run and gun pretty well with an AR, too. Or at least load, shoulder, and unload it without having to remember where all the fancy buttons and levers are located on this tactical fighting ninja weapon system platform.

 They're so easy to use. 

Glad to see you're coming over to the dark side.