Rookie shooter looking for critique and pointers

[Livn68]

Short version:

 

I need to shoot faster to be competitive in PCC. What drills and tips do you guys have for picking up the tempo (splits and transitions).

 

Long version:

I shot my second PCC match on 7/9. The first was a classifier in April. I felt pretty good all match with no Ds or Ms, and not too many Cs. I did have one hit on a NS which sucks. I felt like I was moving pretty fast, but video determined that to be a lie. I was shooting 115g WWB instead of my 124g load bc my press isn't setup at the new place yet, and I think my dot wasn't tracking as reliably as a result. I felt myself stuttering on the trigger a few times due to the long travel to get to reset. At the time of the match, I was running a milspec fcg with jp springs, but will have a 24c for this coming weekends match.

 

I don't believe my gear is the bulk of the problem though. I think my stage planning and inefficient movement through the stages hurt me the most. Coming from primarily a target shooting background, I think I'm spending too much time waiting for the perfect sight picture.

 

For those of you that are more experienced than I, I'd appreciate if you could take a look at my match and give some insight where I could improve.

 

I apologize for the painfully slow to watch stages in advance

 

 

[MHitchcock]

If you are looking for the low-hanging-fruit, working on transition speed and movement will net you the biggest gains. Being it is your second match I wouldn't be concerned about not being the top shooter. I would just look as much trigger time as possible with the goal of pushing speed to where you are still getting mostly A hits. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Didn't look too bad, to me, especially for a 2nd match    

 

More practice, better trigger and you'll be just fine - enjoy     

[selecw]

Have the gun up and ready to shoot as soon as you enter a position. You should be looking at / aiming at the first target in an array before you get there.

 

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Looks like you need to get more target focused to me. You are following the dot in the scope to the target instead of picking up the target and bringing the dot to it. Pretty common problem that I fight with from time to time. You may also try bringing your front hand closer to the magazine by a couple of inches and see if that works better for you on transitions. I think you did very well for just your second match. Keep up the good work. Thanks, Eric

[v1911]

Yup, you need to show more commitment on engaging targets. Snap that barrel into place and quicken those splits. Even at close range there seems to be some delay in acquiring your target and breaking off shots. 

[Jerrymarsh]

Practice Practice and so on

[gdcguns]

Along with everything that has been suggested so far, you seem a little uncomfortable and stiff  moving with the rifle.  Work on moving with the rifle, don't be afraid to move your hands around on the gun during movement, and move with a purpose. Also work on your stage planning during your walk through. A few times you either forgot targets and went back or seemed to hesitate like you weren't sure where to go next.

[Hammer002]

17 hours ago, Livn68 said:

 

Short version:

 

I need to shoot faster to be competitive in PCC. What drills and tips do you guys have for picking up the tempo (splits and transitions).

 

Long version:

I shot my second PCC match on 7/9. The first was a classifier in April. I felt pretty good all match with no Ds or Ms, and not too many Cs. I did have one hit on a NS which sucks. I felt like I was moving pretty fast, but video determined that to be a lie. I was shooting 115g WWB instead of my 124g load bc my press isn't setup at the new place yet, and I think my dot wasn't tracking as reliably as a result. I felt myself stuttering on the trigger a few times due to the long travel to get to reset. At the time of the match, I was running a milspec fcg with jp springs, but will have a 24c for this coming weekends match.

 

I don't believe my gear is the bulk of the problem though. I think my stage planning and inefficient movement through the stages hurt me the most. Coming from primarily a target shooting background, I think I'm spending too much time waiting for the perfect sight picture.

 

For those of you that are more experienced than I, I'd appreciate if you could take a look at my match and give some insight where I could improve.

 

I apologize for the painfully slow to watch stages in advance

 

 

 

 

There are far better shooters here who could give good advice.  I will pass on things told to me that I see you doing as well for your consideration:

 

Lose the front grip.  Don't move it.  Lose it.  Completely.  I fought this myself, thought I liked it too.  No.  Just, no. 

 

Being extended like that is great for those long precise shots, but horrible for movement/transitions/reloads/close quarters.  Let your hand go where it wants.  Or better, where its used to being during practice.

 

When you walk your stage, count the steps.  Not only to determine what course of action is more efficient, but know how many steps it is to that next box.  Get there while looking/aiming at the target you are going to shoot without looking for the box.  Worse yet, looking for the box, then moving, then stopping, then looking for the target, then firing.  Trenton Mitsouka's Outer Limits video explains this very well.

 

Keep the muzzle out of the port holes/slit openings.  Stay back and shuffle step if you need to.  This alone will change a lot.  I struggled with this the first match.  Kept approaching like I had a pistol in my hand.  Felt constricted the whole time. 

 

Get shorter mags for the short courses, especially the ones with mandatory reloads.  I have a Glock lower and I can reload a 17 round magazine on par with a pistol time.  (Well, a Glock anyway.  lol)

 

Pluses:  You move well and are very safe.  You seem to know what you need to be accomplishing, just feeling slow.  It does appear you are looking for too perfect a sight picture sometimes, or otherwise unsure, but mostly look like you know what you should be doing.  Ingrain the walkthrough in you head and memorize it.  Looked very good I thought, but the same as most of us, lacking speed in a new environment.  Seriously though, lose that front grip!

 

I attribute most of my PCC progress to Max Leograndis' youtube channel.  A good place to get some visual "how it should look."  I take no personal credit for any of what I said because everything is something someone else helped me with along the way.

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Hammer002

[gatortommy]

For your second match you're doing fine. It takes a while to get comfortable running around with a rifle as opposed to a pistol, and movement really is the secret sauce. 

 

My number one suggestion would be to practice coming into your positions with the gun up ready to shoot, and break the shot the second you have a good sight picture. Do this left to right AND right to left.

 

Also, get to know how fast you can double tap targets based on distance. Some of your splits on close targets were really slow. You don't always need a great sight picture for the second shot....if it's under 10 yards or so, blaze away!

 

 

[v1911]

Is it just me or does Max's video show his rifle doubling on more than one occasion?

 

He has quick splits, but his triples seem more like a doubling followed by another shot. Not enough of a cadence on the triples for me to believe they aren't a double.

 

Im probably mistaken. I've seen videos of people shooting an AR with the SD3G at machine gun speed. Just seems to me if he could shoot splits that quick, they would all be that fast.

 

Sorry for the thread drift. 

[BigBamBoo]

He (Max) addresses this in another thread. He says it is essentially a bumpfire that he can kinda do on command.

[OPENB]

They sounded like bumpfire.

[reshp1]

I'm pretty new at this too, so take this for what it's worth. 

 

Plan your activated targets better. You're waiting for a few while you could potentially be doing something else, and one of them catches you off guard and you end up engaging it too late. 

 

You're forgetting about sight offset in close and missing low on the head shots. 

 

Shooting around the left of a barrier looked super awkward for you. I feel like you can get more lean out of your lower body instead of just arching your back. Face the barrier square up and keep your feet farther apart laterally and use your right leg for counterbalance so you can lean farther out without tipping over. Also, if I have trouble getting far enough. I'll transition the stock to my other shoulder and aim with my left eye (hands don't move on the gun). 

 

As everyone said, you're getting into shooting positions slowly because you move, stop, and then aim. 

 

Your doubles are really slow. If you kinda have to trust the second shot goes where you want based on stance and grip, at least on the easier targets. If you're getting pulled off target too much try adding some counter tension by pulling the gun harder into your shoulder and pushing your shoulder harder forward into the gun. Trigger will help here too, for sure. 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by reshp1

[Livn68]

Thanks for all of your insight, I've got a match tomorrow so hopefully I'll be able to successfully implement the pointers you guys have given me! 

[Jerrymarsh]

Fast on trigger or bump fire ---shootem up

[Livn68]

Bumping this one back up with the video from my match on 7/23. I felt more comfortable and was able to pick up the speed a little bit. I need to work on my transitions and target focus.
I also have a mag splice, more mags, and a +10 base plate in the works.

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[Hammer002]

4 hours ago, Livn68 said:

Bumping this one back up with the video from my match on 7/23. I felt more comfortable and was able to pick up the speed a little bit. I need to work on my transitions and target focus.
I also have a mag splice, more mags, and a +10 base plate in the works.

 

 

 

 

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I will critique as though I was watching my own video, and again, I’m no pro and still taking a lot of advice myself from some very accomplished competitors.  I don't assume to be better than you, just observations.  There are many skills you possess I wish mine were as strong as.  Everything I have to say is subjective, but many are things great shooters have pulled me aside and explained, such as entries, exits, and stage planning.

First stage – After beep it would have been far faster to quickly move to a memorized position allowing you to quickly engage the same first five targets together instead of moving while shooting.  The next four kinda the same thing, find one spot you could have engaged the most without moving your feet, possibly just leaning from one side of a standing position to the other.  Its hard to see the exact angles, but it almost looks like you could have picked two positions to see all nine, not sure, but I would have looked for it.  It might also have been better to do the two engagements the other way around.  Would have had to been there to know.  Shooting on the move is a great skill to have, but only used when needed cause it can be slower.  Had a national champion explain to me once, "Bullets are ALWAYS faster than your feet."  Its a matter of knowing which skill to use.  In this case, its faster to get to a spot quickly and engage many targets from one position.  You did this better on the last four, but you showed you really didn’t have your stage committed to memory or a specific spot to stop on to engage the first three and swing left without needing a position adjustment.  And then starting to re-engage the other targets is just another way of knowing you didn’t completely commit the stage to memory.  Your approach is right on, just commit your movements to memory.  Pick the fewest number of specific positions to shoot from and memorize them.

Second stage – I would have tried to pick a slightly different spot.  Again a single spot I could see the left paper and the right popper without moving positions.  Again, you are way up in the port, slowing your in and out of position.  Assuming it possible within the fault lines, I would have stopped about 2 to 3 steps back and a little to the right to see the left paper and shot everything from one spot, just slightly further back.  You don’t have to get as close as possible, and it saves time.  Also, you wouldn’t have been so slowed by having to be so careful lowering the muzzle to miss the walls and come out of the port, it would have been a natural swing to the left to the next position.  The next position you went a little too far to the left.  One less step and I think you got all 8 targets from one position without having to move your feet, and again, too far in the slot, slowing your exit.  The next single target could have again been engaged about one step back, keeping you from having to lower the muzzle so far.  This is really slowing you down.  Freakin nice transition to the left hand for that last target!  Not everybody can do that.  Nice touch by also being able to do it falling out.  Hope they were A’s!  Very nice.

Third stage – What’s to say?  Top notch.  Nice mag change!

Fourth stage – Again, its hard to see the angles, but it looks like you could have taken at least one more step while loading, possibly two and engaged the first two without breaking the 180 then swung right from the same position for the other two without having to stop to move your feet.  Same as said before, but also always move as much as possible when having to load from an unloaded start.  Next four, again, quickly move to a predetermined spot to engage all four from one spot.  Looks like the left two first would have been my plan cause the lower one needed a more precise position, then a fast swing to the right for the other two from the same position.  Not sure why we did a reload there, but looked like a brief moment of confusion, maybe a malfunction?  Next two looked like no choices available, but if you could have shot both from the needed kneeling position for the upper, even if it was a head shot on the lower, it would have cut movement time in half.  The next four, I would have moved into the twisting left position first, then engaged the two to the right as I exited, a swing from left to right, you are moving in the direction you need to anyway for the next target and by doing this, you have already cleared the gun from the wall mostly.  Basically it saves one swing of the muzzle.  Had there been no other targets, the way you did it would have been good to finish.  Last two are preference, but I would have gone top first because it was slightly less open, then quick to the wide open target under the no shoot as fast as I can pull the trigger - transition and second two shots may have been faster.

Fifth stage – What more could you ask for?  Very nice.  And again with the awesome mag change.

Sixth classifier – All good here too, minus a couple mental things you probably wouldn’t do on a regular occasion.  Would have definitely started the final string with the gun already in left hand.  Think you realized it though.

Seventh stage – RUN AT THE BEEP!  Lol.  Bet you saw the same thing though.  When exiting from the first engagement, it probably would have been faster to take a lunging step back and run with the gun like a pistol.  The Max videos are really good for an example of this, he does it extremely well.  Dependent on angles and how you could actually see things, I would have been looking to break the next four into either two positions, or shuffle step, both of which to keep the muzzle out of the slot.  On approach, hit the low one on the left, shuffle a step or just swing right depending on first angle for the next two, then begin movement to next slot, stopping when you can see the fourth.  KInda like a slicing the pie thing, if you are familiar with that, you look like you would be.  Its faster than getting in the slot and having to get back out.  Same thing at the next opening, engage the left paper as you approach.  If you look, your rifle was even pointed right at it.  Then shuffle step to enough to see the right paper and steel.  Steel first, then paper and already leaning in the direction of travel to the next target position.  Last ones were awesome except for the malfunction I believe it was.  I wish I could shoot that well around those off handed corners as you do.

You move very well, just stay as safe and do it faster.  Take a little more time to commit each stage to memory and pick as few shooting positions as possible allowing yourself to swing.  Its way faster.  Overall look very strong, just more experience I think.  The mag changes are amazing and the offhanded stuff isn’t slowing you down a bit like it does a lot of people.  As I said before, watch some of Max’s videos and study that guys entry and exit movements, he is a master at it.  Last thing I would say is get more practice with that rifle.  As you said before, you are taking just milliseconds too long to pull the trigger.  Get to know where that thing is pointing by feel.  This is an area I am focused on too.  That's why I do so much steel challenge.  Get confident with where its pointing and you might even experiment with getting the stock slightly higher on the shoulder to save having to bring the head so far to meet the dot.  Also, experiment with wrapping the grip a little more where the thumb is on top and the index finger is on the side, both pointing forward at the target.  This is a natural aim for the body and mind with a rifle.  Max's videos are again a good example of this.  Thanks for the opportunity to critique, helps me too.  All small stuff to add (or not if its not for you) to an already strong platform you have going.  Keep it up, man.

 

[MHitchcock]

As far as the 6th stage you can hear the RO telling him it has to start in right hand. I had this happen on a classifier a while ago. They made PCC start on dominant side then switch to weak side. 

 

[Hammer002]

4 hours ago, MHitchcock said:

As far as the 6th stage you can hear the RO telling him it has to start in right hand. I had this happen on a classifier a while ago. They made PCC start on dominant side then switch to weak side. 

 

 

You know, I wondered that and I went and read the classifier stage description and it didn't say that.  Is there I general rule that covers that I missed?  It wouldn't surprise me, I just don't remember running across it.

[MHitchcock]

I couldn't find anything, but I didn't spend much time looking either. I think the official description said to draw and transfer to weak hand. My RO at the time was our CRO, so I just went with it. I mean a pistol shooter has to draw from dominant hand and transfer. Seems fair to me. 

[Hammer002]

18 minutes ago, MHitchcock said:

I couldn't find anything, but I didn't spend much time looking either. I think the official description said to draw and transfer to weak hand. My RO at the time was our CRO, so I just went with it. I mean a pistol shooter has to draw from dominant hand and transfer. Seems fair to me. 

 

CM 03-07 Riverdale Standards

Written Stage Briefing

Riverdale Standards is a 20 round, 100 point, Virginia Count classifier course. There are 4 metric targets. The best 5 hits per target will score. The start signal is audible.

The start position is standing in box A, facing downrange, wrists above respective shoulders. Your handgun is loaded and holstered.

PCC start position is standing in Box A, facing downrange, stock on belt, muzzle downrange, loaded carbine held in both hands with safety on.

String 1: On the start signal, from box A only, engage T1-T4 with only one round each, freestyle, make a mandatory reload, and then engage T1-T4 with only one round each, freestyle.

String 2: On the start signal, from box A only, engage T1-T4 with only one round each, freestyle, make a mandatory reload, then engage T1-T4 with only one round each, strong hand only. PCC--Strong shoulder only.

String 3: On the start signal, from Box A only, engage T1-T4 with only one round each, weak hand only. PCC—weak shoulder only. 

 

 

 

Nothing like that I see, at least for this classifier, though I know some others do say that.  I looked it up before I posted and just assumed the RO was full of it.  Again, I could be wrong, and have been many times in the past, but by what I read I'm starting string three with it in my left hand with stock on belt facing down range.  Fair?  We don't shoot rifles in pistol matches to be fair!  

Edited July 28, 2017 by Hammer002

[MHitchcock]

String 3. 30 ft. Upon start signal, transfer gun to weak

hand, and from behind the fault line, engage T1- T6 with only one round per target using weak hand only.

 

Thats from 99-40

[Hammer002]

11 minutes ago, MHitchcock said:

String 3. 30 ft. Upon start signal, transfer gun to weak

hand, and from behind the fault line, engage T1- T6 with only one round per target using weak hand only.

 

Thats from 99-40

 

Right, many say that, but this one doesn't, right?  This one is 03-07 Riverdale Standards.  So likely the RO was mistaken, which was what I thought unless there is another rule I am forgetting?

 

i guess one could incorrectly interpret PCC 8.2.4 which says no stage description can require a weak hand PCC start, but that doesn't mean I can't choose to.

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Hammer002

[Livn68]

All the PCCs in our squad shot it starting with the rifle on our weak sides, I stepped away to take a phone call after I shot and when I came back I was told we all had to reshoot it transferring. I was glad actually bc I seriously messed up the first string on a heat induced mental error haha


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