Looking at dabbling in limited. Looking for comparison advice.

[R34PER]

I'm interested in trying limited. 1911 pattern pistols are my favorite overall design. With CZ pattern pistols a close second. To start I want to shoot something right out of the box and not go over $2,000 budget. If Limited is the division for me and my competition gun budget increases I would consider having a custom gun built in a two or three seasons.

 

In the sub $2000 category of 2011s how do the SPS Pantera .40sw (listed $1,599.99 but out of stock), RIA Pro Match HC .40sw (listed $920 out of stock), STI Edge .40sw (listed $1,999.99 in-stock) and STI Eagle .40sw (listed $1,699.99 in-stock) compare?

 

Also for comparison sake lets throw in Tanfoglio Xtreme Limited .40sw (listed 1,995.99 in-stock) and CZ TS Orange .40sw (listed $1,799.99 in-stock). 

 

I've watch numerous youtube videos and read extensively through forum posts, but I would like some opinions on this comparison.

 

As a side comparison between a STI Edge and STI Eagle, does the added frame weight/bull barrel or barrel bushing matter? What is the difference?

Edited July 12, 2017 by R34PER
Grammar correction

[sfinney]

Edges shoot flatter than Eagles due to the extra weight at the muzzle end. But might transition slower due to the weight. Either would be fine, but if starting out in Limited I'd recommend an Edge or similar in .40, and reload. Some great deals to be had on used Edges with mags, etc from time to time as well.

 

No need for a custom gun (other than sometimes people just want one). You can shoot a well fit STI 40K to 80K rounds (or more?) with minor maintenance. And then rebarrel and keep shooting.

[Trent1k1]

One of the great things about an STI gun is that it is very popular. If you have a problem, just about anyone at your range can help diagnose it or may even have a part in thier bag to help you out.  Need a bulley recipe for an Edge or Eagle?  Tons of information available.  

 

At my range there are zero Tanfos so you are on your own.  I have no idea if a Tanfo can tun long ammo or not.

 

The bull barrel and weight between an Eagle and Edge makes a difference in the feel.  Shooting 40 major,  me and many others developed tennis elbow like symptoms from the recoil. That was using an Edge.

 

Your experience may be different.

 

As for the cheaper guns, the fit and finish may not be as good as on an Edge.  My experience is based on shooting an Edge for 2 years and not shooting the other guns.

 

Good luck in your search.

[Sarge]

You are looking for advice, not advise!

 

[R34PER]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

You are looking for advice, not advise!

 

Thanks, fixed

[R34PER]

Is the quality/performance of STI out of the box significantly better than SPS/RIA even when factoring in price? 

 

Is there any benefit to the Eagle? $1999.99 for an Edge with 1 mag, after figuring in all additional costs (holster, mag pouches, mags, etc) it just barely fits in the budget.

[Trent1k1]

you will get a ton of responses on STI quality right now.

 

All the guns will probably take some work.  My Edge needed to have the chamber reamed for longer ammo, and the trigger lightened up from about 4 lbs.

 

All the other guns will need the same work though too.

[Jmo2011]

All the videos and opinions are meaningless if the platform doesn't fit. Long and short of it is you must handle several before you can make an educated decision and develop preferences. Most shooters at club matches will help if you ask. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Jmo2011

[Sarge]

10 minutes ago, R34PER said:

Thanks, fixed

I prefer the looks of a short dust cover gun like the eagle over the slab side edge. But there are a ton of edges at matches so my guess is the added weight is a good thing. 

 Performance is always paramount but you also have to like the look of the gun as well in my opinion.

 All the other brands you mentioned are either low quality or just not quite main stream.

 Plus one on the repair issues. STI's are so common they are easy to keep running

[RangerTrace]

If you can find an Eagle in .40, I would go that route because you can shoot lots of sports with it.  I'm currently having CKARMS build me a custom version of the eagle.  You can probably find one for around $1700 since they are discontinued.

[R34PER]

1 minute ago, RangerTrace said:

If you can find an Eagle in .40, I would go that route because you can shoot lots of sports with it.  I'm currently having CKARMS build me a custom version of the eagle.  You can probably find one for around $1700 since they are discontinued.

There is a gun store that is 1 1/2 hour drive away from me here in Ohio, that has a new Eagle .40sw in stock for $1,699.99. They also have a new Edge .40 sw in stock $1,999.99. I did not know the Eagle had been discontinued.

 

6 minutes ago, Jmo2011 said:

All the videos and opinions are meaningless if the platform doesn't fit. Long and short of it is you must handle several before you can make an educated decision and develop preferences. Most shooters at club matches will help if you ask. 

The only 2011 I have shot was a former acquaintance's new STI 2011 Hex Tac 9mm 5.0. It was one of the limited edition baby shit brown slide, baby puke green frame that came out a few years ago before the official Hex line was released. In terms of grip it was a perfect fit, but I didn't care for the way 9mm recoiled in that gun. Not flat enough to be "motionless"(like a .22), yet not enough recoil to get into a consistent rhythm(like .45acp in a single stack).

[sfinney]

Well, if you want to feel the recoil and get in rhythm get an Eagle short dustcover gun. It will be snappier than an Edge. But I like the way they handle better... after several years of shooting Edge type guns, I ended up lightening up the Edges  so much over time, I figured may as well start light. YRMV.

 

While the RIA guns can be set up nice, I prefer the STI type guns for quality and feel. Same thing with a Para based gun.

Now, the SPS are pretty nice, basically a Spanish clone of the STI...  but availability can be difficult. I'd rather buy a used STI for the price.

[zzt]

I have two STI guns and one CZ 75 TS.  One of the STIs is an Edge.  The other is a short just cover with a standard barrel (custom, not an Eagle).

 

By far, the best value in a ready to shoot out of the box is the CZ 75 Tactical Sport, and not the TSO.  I'm not knocking the STIs.  I like them a lot.  That's why I still have them.  However, the TS has some significant advantages, IMO.  First, it truly is ready to shoot out of the box.  Good 2 lb trigger and great ergonomics.  You get your hand well into the beavertail and the bore is lower in your hand that a 2011.  That makes follow up shots faster, because the muzzle does not rise as much.

 

Two, they don't break.  Three, you can buy a TS in 40 for $1100 and get three mags with it.  Add in another $100 for an extended mag and $150 for three CZC extended base pads and you are done.  I chose to add a Dawson FO front sight.  That was another $60 or so.  Buy a good belt and three mag pouches $120 and you are ready to compete.

 

That total is less than you would spend for a bare Eagle.  With the STIs you have to buy additional mags, plus tune them.  Newer Edges are not problem free, and may require some tuning.

 

If you decide you want to stay with a 2011 platform, I'd suggest you buy a used STI from a reputable source.  The bugs will have been worked out, and you will likely get tuned mags included in the deal.  A 2011 platform can me modified six ways from Sunday.  The TS, not so much.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[sfinney]

I have shot 2011s and a CZ TS for a time. Before buying a CZ TS make sure your thumb is happy- hold one, work the thumb safety on and off - the thumb safety feels - different. Not for everyone. But a great value as a gun.  I would suggest that they do sometimes break, like any gun. There is a reason they used to ship them from the factory with 4 slide stops.   The stock magwell sucks, but can be replaced. The stock mags IMHO are harder to load to capacity, and get/keep tuned. But once you get them setup, they are great guns.

 

Any Limited gun you buy, new or used, is going to need work.... kind of like going from a Street Car (Production) to  a Race Car (Limited/Open). High end race cars need setting up and constant tuning to keep them running properly.

 

Be careful on the used market, sometimes what you find there are other peoples discarded problem children.... BUT, if you can find one with a known pedigree, that works, is already set up, you may be able to find a decent STI type gun for $1500 to $2000 that comes with several mags and a holster rig. And has had the bugs worked out.

 

OR, you might eyes wide open buy a screaming deal on a gun with issues, that needs TLC..... but that is not recommended unless you feel confident tinkering, an/or have  a local smith on speed dial. And if it needs major work, you ended up not saving any money.

 

Good luck with your search - sometimes that parts almost as fun as the having!

[ttolliver]

I have to jump in with comments on the 2011 vs CZ Tactical Sport.

 

I had one of the high end custom 2011s that ran like a dream. Shot it for a season and a half with only an occasional irritant due to what I'll call an aggressively tight chamber, hehehe. 2011s are a beautiful platform. Since you're already a fan of 1911s it sounds like a match made in heaven. However factory STIs do need tinkering to get running reliably. Some seem to have had more headaches than others, although to be fair that could be due to the shooter and their ability to properly diagnose and address the issues.

 

But I'm not saying to avoid STIs, mainly just know exactly what you're signing up for. If you enjoy tinkering with your guns anyway go for it.

 

On the other hand, as previously stated the CZ is ready to go reliable out of the box.

 

Now we can talk plenty about the difference between the original TS and the TSO. I think the TSO is worth it, but that's a personal choice. However if you go with the TS know that you're almost guaranteed to spend $400+ on replacement parts just to bring it up to where the TSO is (metal magwell to replace small plastic one, metal or g10 grips to replace wood, adjustable rear sight to replace fixed, FO front sight to replace black, thumb rest) and there's only a $500 to $600 difference between the two as long as you can find a TSO. A number of them recently came into the country and they can still be had for the low $1600s last time I looked. And not having to do the grip reduction, refinish it, and use grip tape is well worth the remaining $100 to $200.

 

Of course that's to bring it up to the TSO. Even with the TSO you can expect to replace the safety. That's $75 from CZCustom. And you will end up spending $50 in abrasives/cold blue and an hour or so blending the grip frame to the magwell and putting a little finish back on. Again, that applies to both models. And if you're not a fan of shock buffers, you can get one of the DPM recoil reduction systems for the TS for another $85.

 

Okay, so I know I just got done harping on having to mess with the 2011 and then I give you a list of having to mess with the CZ. I get it. But the big difference is that the 2011 is messing to get it reliable. And that can be amazingly frustrating. I think most of us would say we'd put up with almost anything irritating about a firearm as long as it is reliable. So to me the factory STIs commit that worst possible sin. With the CZ TSO you drop in a safety and spend a leisurely hour grinding, polishing, and refinishing a little metal. Maybe you decide to drop in a different guide rod. But it is reliable out of the box, and aside from probably struggling a little to disengage the safety you can plan on taking it to a match the day after you bring it home.

 

It's all just food for thought. Have fun with the decision. I'm sure whichever way you go you'll enjoy the guns.

[davidb72]

My advice to anyone that expresses an interest in STI guns is to find a used one.

That way the other guy has hopefully done the work of tuning it up and getting it to run right.

I have gotten two STI Edges this way and have been very happy with both of them.

[aandabooks]

I've been doing exactly the same thing in Limited the past couple months.  I picked up a CZ TS on here that the previous owner had not shot.  Put grips, FO front and mag extensions on it.  Have shot it in 3 matches so far.  Love the gun and love the fact that it didn't need $$$ thrown at the trigger just to be acceptable.

 

While considering a backup gun for the TS I ran into a trade on a Edge .40 with mags that I couldn't pass up.  Since I started shooting USPSA 3 years ago it seemed like the Edge was the gun to have around the clubs I shoot at.  I just got it in on Monday and haven't shot it yet.  Previous owner put 3k on it and trigger is sub 3lbs.

 

Not sure if I would have been better off passing and going after a TSO/TS to share holster, mags and spare parts.  If the TS continues to perform the Edge may end up for sale.  Its big redeeming value is that it came with enough mags that it is ready ro run.

 

[tanks]

I shot a CZ TS for about 8-9 months, been shooting an Edge for about another 4 months. I liked the TS, the only issue I have had with it was the tuning fork effect when the sights came back down (mostly due to me), however the heavier Edge eliminated it.

 

Now, the only non ergonomic (I have small hands so had to reduce the grip) changes on the TS were magwell, sights and extended safety. On the Edge I had to have a trigger job, pinned Ed brown grip safety, and an SVI trigger. I also changed the grip to an SVI steel grip but that is not necessary for most people.

 

On TS I broke the slide stop (a regular thing on CZs) on the Edge I broke the extractor. So, both firearms require replacement of parts.

 

Personally, I like the handling and balance of the Edge better. Though, disassembly/assembly of the CZ is much easier as you don't have to worry about paper clip tools or linkages. It takes me minutes longer to clean and reassemble the Edge than the CZ as taking the TS apart and putting it back together is seconds not minutes and does not require any tools.

 

For your budget CZ TS is the way to go.

Edited July 12, 2017 by tanks

[superlifer03]

I shot a Glock 24 for about 6 months then bought a new RIA .40 Pro Match.  Shot it for a year and and a half and shot at least 20k thru it.  Made it to A class with it.   Great gun but very heavy and harder to steer than a short dust cover gun.  

    I had a full dust cover gun built on a CK frame, sight tracker and plastic grip and have been shooting it for 6 months.  The difference is huge between the two guns.  The ergonomics is way better with the CK frame gun.

    I just got another CK frame gun built with a sight tracker barrel and  I had it tri topped and a 3/4 length dust cover.  I have been shooting this for two weeks. Much better handling pistol the lighter the front end but the sight lift is a little higher.  It seems to be the perfect balance I have been looking for 

    If money is an object, you can't go wrong with the RIA as a starter pistol.   Mine was reliable and one of my buddies is shooting it now.  The barrel broke around the link pin after ALOT of rds and RIA fixed it no questions asked.  Good product and good warranty.  I learned a lot shooting that pistol.

 

TheEdge will put you where most limited guys are and will be the easiest to move if you decide to get rid of it. Knowing what I know now and considering the 3 options you presented , I would jump straight to the Eagle.  Reason is that I prefer the light handling characteristics of a short dust cover lighter front end gun. 

     Good luck with your decision. 

[zzt]

I'll have to disagree with tt's version of what is required to get a TS "perfect".  In my earlier post I described what it took to get mine running.  I was told by CZC to NEVER use the included shock buffs.  I haven't, and I've never broken a slide stop.  There are nine other TS in 9mm and 40 used by friends in the same matches I shoot.  None of them has ever broken a slide stop.

 

I recently added an Al IPSC magwell for no other reason than I wanted to Cerakote it to match the slide.  It works no better or worse than the plastic factory magwell.  I have approximately 12,000 rounds through my TS and I have not had a single problem with it.

 

Regarding the TSO vs. TS.  I've handled one at the club.  Slide to frame fit is no tighter than my TS.  He took the thumb rest off, because he didn't want to buy a race holster.  It won't fit into any of the kydex holsters with the rest on.  It comes with +1 basepads.  That's not enough for Limited, IMO.  The CZC pads give you 20 reloadable, or 21 if you use the CZC springs and followers.  My friend's TSO is less accurate than my TS, but that make be due to his loads.  Buy a TSO if you like, but I don't think it worth the cost delta.

[tanks]

15 minutes ago, zzt said:

I'll have to disagree with tt's version of what is required to get a TS "perfect".  In my earlier post I described what it took to get mine running.  I was told by CZC to NEVER use the included shock buffs.  I haven't, and I've never broken a slide stop.  There are nine other TS in 9mm and 40 used by friends in the same matches I shoot.  None of them has ever broken a slide stop...

 

The changes suggested by TT are almost exactly what I did to my TS plus the grip reduction and metal curved trigger for "small hands". I didn't use the buffers either. Also, the breaking of my slide stop was after about 25K rounds of .40 major loads, so you have some time

[R34PER]

Thanks for all the input so far! Definitely appreciate the attempt from many of you to be unbiased.

 

In terms of running "out of the box" to me means no need to permanently alter the firearm. Such as reshaping, filing, or refinishing. Also, no need to replace parts on the gun. Such as aftermarket magwell, safety, grips, recoil system, etc. I don't mind tinkering in terms of swapping different weighted springs, adjusting leaf spring tension, or adjusting pre travel/over travel. If those adjustments are preferences in the feel of the gun, not necessary for the gun to function properly. 

 

Needing to replace parts that wear out from use like springs, slide stops, bushings, etc is not a big deal. As long as it is within reasonable regular maintenance period, like once a year before the season starts.

 

Given everybody's feedback so far it looks like STI Edge/Eagle and CZ TS are the clear favorites. Can anyone give direct comparison on overall performance, accuracy, recoil, trigger, etc? 

 

Looking at the past couple Limited Nationals surveys CZ/Tanfo doesn't even appear as a blimp. Are they even comparable in performance? I know Vogel crushes with a Glock, the gun's performance is only a very small part of the overall equation, etc. I just want to set myself up from the start so I don't notice the equipment and just focus on shooting. 

[36873687]

The price difference of sps an edge I'd definitely edge. U can find a used one at great price. I have a executive an it eats every thing. Had problem with slide stop at first begin to short but Sti made it right. 

[jcc7x7]

Money, performance and all things considered

Buy a used EDGE or EAGLE which ever you like the look of.

I know master class shooters with both!!

It'll be under budget and probably can pick up the mags you need with it

[tanks]

49 minutes ago, 36873687 said:

The price difference of sps an edge I'd definitely edge. U can find a used one at great price. I have a executive an it eats every thing. Had problem with slide stop at first begin to short but Sti made it right. 

 

Here you go, close to OP's price range includes 4 mags.

 

http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?/topic/251239-custom-sti-edge-40cal/