Sighting system for 3- Gun Tactical

[AH6IP]

Just looking for opinions on what works, for CQB to 300-400 yds.  The Holosight is great up to around 150-200(steady hand!), and looked at the Leupold CQT(great concept, but why stop at 3X when they could have gone 4X, and the dot is way to big, and a few other issues).  And we have heard that Aimpoint is coming out with one similar to the CQT, but better(they say).  Thanks guys for any inputs(BTW, the TN 3 Gun was a hoot, Curtis McMahon(MD) and the hosting club(NTPS)did a great job)

JL

(Edited by AH6IP at 11:36 am on Sep. 15, 2002)

(Edited by AH6IP at 4:59 pm on Sep. 15, 2002)

[kellyn]

Although not SOF/WC3gun legal, the low-powered variable is the ultimate all-around sight.  I'll take a Leupold 1.5-5x over a CQ/T or ACOG any day as an all-around sight .  The CQ/T may be better for the hoser stuff as it's a true 1X but at 200+  (or even over 100), the 1.5-5X is going to stomp it.  The ACOG is good for farther stuff but has too much magnification for close hoser stages.  The Holosight is good but as you said starts to fall short at longer ranges.

What we need is a variable that goes from a true 1X all the way to 6X.  It needs to be tough and have lots of eye relief.  It has to have 1/2  MOA clicks.   It has to have a huge field of view. It should have different reticles available for all the pickie shooters who like different stuff.  Oh, it has to be reasonably priced as well!  

[AH6IP]

Well said Kelly.  We were having this same discussion out at Kyle's match, and then just yesterday at the TN 3 gun.  

Thats it, I'm gonna design one, test it, and manufacture it(somewhere).  And sell a thousand, and for less than a CQT!!  Hell, I'm sure i can get socom to buy a boatload, it just has to be black and swoopy.  And i dont care if its not WC3 gun legal, i dont acquire(nor do probably 99% of the people that shoot 3-gun) equipment for just one match.  Wish they would just come on board with just plain 3gun Tactical match philosophy(like Kyle's match in NC)-my 2 cents.

(Edited by AH6IP at 10:34 pm on Sep. 15, 2002)

[kurtm]

AH6IP/KELLY:

Just got done with a day out in the great outdoors and thought I would put in my insights on this here optical matter. We had 10" steel plates from 100 to 400 yds in arrays of 3s and 4s, and a MGM flash target. there were 3 TA-11s w/ hollow circle retical. 1 LEUPOLD 3-9, and 1 CQ-T. All carbines were 20" flat tops all bullet weights were 55gr. By the way these bullets all showed a great flash from the MGM target at 400 yds so "get over" the heavy stuff. All the shooters were fairly equal in skill level( Me, Eric, Jimmy, Dean, and Blake). The TA-11s from 200yds on were substantialy faster than any thing else!!! The main problem with variables is you have to remember where it was set last. the main problem with the CQ-T was the dot was hard to figure hold over with and hard to figure hold off for the wind.

Out to 300 the hollow TA-11 retical is fast, fast, fast. If the inside of the circle is filled with the color of the plate it hits!!! past that are those wonderful stadia hairs for 400, 500,600 etc, and boy do they work!!! no guessing hold over!!! and each side of the stadia hairs represent 9" at the given range so hold off is a snap!!! As for close range churn and burn, with a modicom of practice it is not much slower than just a 1x or dot( I was 3rd fastest last year going up the gully at the helicopter stage even with a nice fall getting out of the chopper). For a 10 yd El Presidente I'm usually .5-.8 seconds slower than Eric's CQ-T. That ain't a bad time price to pay for what you get further out. I've said it befor and now will say it again For Me the TA-11 is the only way to go for both tactical optic class OR OPEN!!! And now I'm sure you all will tell Me why it just isn't so.... But the results seem to say it is. Clean em all like they are loaners and have fun                           KURT

[xsrdx]

Kurt, man I'm right there with you, plus those Loopy variables are relatively delicate by comparison.

The hard mounted ACOG, especially on that JP upper like you run ( I think) sounds like the s*it.

Bring on the variable ACOG, but for now that TA11 is my pick for a single rifle optic.

Based on input from Todd Salmon and others, doesn't sound like anybody that's really good uses the scope inside 10 yards anyway, so the lack of 1X is not much of a handicap.

[kellyn]

Kurt and xsrdx,  (in my best Samuel Jackson voice) Allow me to retort.

"Get over" the heavy stuff:

 A 75 gr.  Hornady has a  BC of .395 and can be shot at 2800 fps.  A 55gr. has a BC of .156 and can be shot at 3200 fps.  You do the math.  Which do you want to shoot in a 10 mph crosswind at a 400 yard target.  Kurt, remember I'm the guy that shot 30 55 gr. bullets  at the 200 yard pepper popper at the SOF team match and did not knock it over.  Would 75s have done it? I don't know but they would have had a better chance.

TA11 as the ultimate sight:

The TA11 is an excellent sight, especially past 300 yards.  Has one ever won the open rifle at the nationals?  I don't think so.  2002 was won by a Leupold 1.5-5X and 2001 was won by a Leupold 3-9X.    I shot the same wash stage with a TA11 and hated it and even had a miss!  I shot the haybale at 5 yards thinking it was a target.  Too much power.

Todd Salmon:

Todd is an awesome three gunner so I would listen to ANYTHING he has to say.  (There are few things more awesome than Todd running his Benelli) I disagree about not using sights inside of 10 yards though.  I do!  It has to be a near contact shot before I don't use the sights.  I can't speak for Todd's preferences.  I have seen him use a TA11 at SOF but what sight did he use at the North Carolina tactical 3 gun where he could pick any ONE scope:  a Leupold 1-4X.

[Dingus Kahn]

Can I ask a newbie question. What is the TA-11? Who makes it and do they have a web site.

Thanks

Dirk

[scottmilk9]

Dingus, I beleive the TA-11 is the trijicon acog,   website should be trijicon.com.  

Why not use Iron sights.  500yds with my AR is no problem.  ok its a little problem, but its fun.

Oh yeah, when Kelley tells you to go prone,  just listen, dont worry about getting dirty,   lol  thanks kelley

[xsrdx]

Before I get in trouble for putting words in Todd's mouth,  my comment was based on a discussion with another NC3G competitor who had spoken with him at length regarding the use of sights up close - and the benefits of simply aligning the sighting eye along the barrel for targets inside 3-5m.

10yd might be stretching it, but by 10yd, 3x is pretty manageable.

[AH6IP]

Again, I was looking for opinions on "all-around, use it anywhere" scope.  I see alot of mention of the WC3Gun, but that land is wide open, it has to be fast in the trees(TN 3Gun, NC 3Gun, etc)and dark, shady areas.  I agree with Kelly on the variable option, and thinking the ability to illuminate the reticle(either plex or circle dot)is the heat.

FWIW-Acogs did not fair well at the TN 3 Gun(close ranges and in the trees/dark)and this by real good shooters.

(Edited by AH6IP at 11:09 am on Sep. 17, 2002)

[AT]

Question: Is there a rule that prohibits the use of a setup similar that the one shown on Grams Engineering (http://www.gramseng.com/) that would allow a shooter to have both a red dot and a scope attached to the rifle at the same time.

Also, what type of red dot is attached to the scope in this picture?

Thanks!

[Colt1991]

There is no rule that would prohibit the use of a rifle set up like that.  All it would do is put you into an open class.  As for the red dot and set up see the grams eng web site farther down the page and you will find it.

[xsrdx]

"all-around, use it anywhere"

As is probably obvious by now, that's a tall order, but Kelly speaks the truth regarding the use of variables by top shooters -they win. That's usually a good indication of what works best.

Anytime you have a majority of targets at 100m or less, the ACOG will be usually be slower than a dot or other 1x optic.   The argument for the TA11/ACOG is for the speed and accuracy it gives you at RIFLE ranges, and at 200-500m it offers a hard to beat combination of magnification, reticle ease of use and clarity/FOV. It's also hell for strong durable, won't give up it's zero if you drop it, and the tritium/fiber gives you a wide range of reticle illumination.

Do you compromise for carbine/SMG range, or rifle range? Is speed up close more important, or is speed at range the critical issue? The variable is a compromise towards close in speed that still hits well at 200m - unlike an Aimpoint or Holosight - but the ACOG gives you an edge in rapidly engaging distant targets, which IMO is what a rifle is intended to do.

Soon, Trijicon will introduce a variable ACOG, and our prayers will be answered, the Holy Grail of optics will have arrived. Just around the corner...

[kellyn]

The 2 sight setup will put most people in open class.  However a clever and enterprising person could possibly go to SOF/WC3gun with both an ACOG and an aimpoint as they are both legal sights.  You would just need backup irons for the aimpoint.  A goofy setup but it would meet the rules.

I don't care for the idea of mounting a dot directly off of my scope tube.  A scope tube as never designed to do that.  Does it hurt the tube?  I don't know but I don't want to find out.  I mount my dot on the handguard at 2 o'clock.

[kurtm]

AH6IP/KELLY:

The third place shooter at N.C.3 gun was using a TA-11. His name was Blane West for those that have forgotten. He was just a few scant seconds slower than Todd over all and score wise almost the same. I know because they are both team mates of mine!

Kelly, I have done the math and I belive what Todd had to say that fine windy day in Raton " I got a 308, I got a 308, any one want to rent it?" The B.C. of a good 55 gr bullet is .173 ( Sierra Blitzking)  sooo what? We are now talking meer inches of deflection difference. I, Blane ,Todd, John Gangle, Eric, and Jimmy have always used 55 gr bullets in the little carbine, and the results speak for them selves. I guess we have put in the time it takes to get to know the hold off necessary to get that combo to work for us. As for the TA-11 in open I said I would use it  but I am not renouned for shooting open.

As for the sope working in the deep dark woods, the tritium lamp lights the reticle and it is the s#$t in the woods. The best part is you DON'T HAVE TO REMEMBER TO TURN IT ON, or adjust the power setting. I have found cross hair to get lost in the really dark deep woods so you might rethink that.                KURT

[kellyn]

For a wayward highpower shooter you surprise me, Kurt.  When was the last time a highpower shooter shot a 55 grain bullet in an AR at 200 or 300?  1984? or was it 82?

Mere inches can mean a lot on a 8 or 10 inch plate! It can easily mean a C where a heavy weight will get an A. I agree that for most 3 gunning, the heavier bullets are not necessary as the ranges are short.  I also agree that lots of good, even great 3 gunners like you, use 55 grainers.  I still think the heavier bullets are the way to go for 200 + shots.  The higher BCs are worth it and I don't shoot the heavy bullets any slower.

As for sights, you're right about illumination in the forest.  Bennie won the NC match with a Holosight and I believe it helped him in the dark forest, something we don't have at our AZ ranges.  

I was shooting pistol on Todd's team and was really happy to see that AR10!  He smoked that steel!

[kurtm]

Kelly:

Of course you don't shoot the heavy bullets slower, as you are god incarnate with a trigger; unless of course you mean velocity wise, in which case you are god incarnate of over pressure. HA HA HAW!!!

I think the year was 1982, the year I was born, and that is why I don't remember it. High power is high power and not 3 gun, but it is 3 position. On a course with a set # of rounds to engage a target you probably have a point.; but when you have an unlimited # of rounds and you can see dust or bullet strike I personally feel the point becomes mute.

I am always ammused at the concept of the 77gr bullet at 2800 as being the "end all and be all" of all bullets in the universe. I seem to recall the Palma Match bullet in 308 does about this velocity( or a bit more ), with twice the weight and a fairly equivalent bc, but in the mind of carbine shooters it pales in compairison. I remember triing to OVER PUMP my air rifle too!!

All this is said tounge in cheek! If heavies make you happy then it must be okay. So little of 3 gun is at these ranges that I just remember to hold off a bit more. By the way my 3-gun match ammo does double duty in the form of prairie dog ammo. The heavies just don't open up on these liitle devils, but the Blitzkings sure do, and it,s always windy where we shoot so I guess I'm used to the hold off requiered.

As Kipling said East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet; and so shall the heavy, light debate go. I just can't get the picture of a Crossman out of my mind!!!            KURT

[AH6IP]

Heavy bullets, light  bullets, what happened to the sight debate?  Anyway, I think the one drawback on the 55grn was the fact it would not(I'm quoting a famous shooter here)activate the MGM flash targets way out there at a big match he shot.  As far as the variable ACOG, that will probably cost a mere arm and a leg.  Kelly, I am now shooting the Holosight on one gun, and NOW shoot the 1.5X5 on the other, match dependent or course.  I went with the illuminated reticle, kinda like shooting a dot, but crosshairs when ya need em.

[Colt1991]

I know for a fact a 55 grn will flash a flash target up to 400 yards because I was shooting my flash target at 400 yards this weekend.  If I recall on the MGM web page they say 223 will flash the target up to 550 yards.

[TMC]

(Edited by TMC at 1:52 pm on Sep. 18, 2002)

[kellyn]

Kurt, LOL on the overpumping of the air rifle!

[rkgsmith]

Just found about this site. My system works for me. I use a

3x9 leupold with target knobs on the flat top. I know my dope from 100 to 500 yards so I can set my scope right before getting on a stage. I also have a tacso PDP5 with the 4,8,12 and 16 min. dot mounted on the right side of the handguard. It's zeroed for 100 so I have a consistent hold from muzzle to 100 yards. I just cant the rifle inboard when

using the dot, on targets under 100 yards. On farther targets I use the scope. I'm sticking with this system, It has worked in the past from 3 to 300 yards without a hitch.

[Mickster]

rkgsmith

That sounds like a great setup for USPSA 3-gun. At what position (clock) do you have the PDP5 mounted? Also, do you have a metal full floating handguard or something else? I like the idea of having the dot closer to the bore.

[rkgsmith]

Mickster, Ref. the PDP5 on the AR. It sits about 2 o'clock

on a floating handguard. I tested it by taking a weaver base

and mounting with some radiator clamps to see if I liked the

set up. It was actually strong enough to leave that way, but

looked hokey. I like the PDP5 because of the field of view, and the multiple dot sizes.If the match isn't going to need

a scope I just pop it off ( Warne rings, return to zero) and

shoot the dot.

[Bill H]

"It was actually strong enough to leave that way, but

looked hokey."

And that really stopped you?