Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Area 5 Arb


waktasz

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

The scoring RO is in the shooting area. I stand corrected! But he appears to be way uprange from the shooter and was not in the way.

Way up range is relative. Mason is moves scary fast and could cover that three yards in no time flat. The stage is a bit of an RO trap. It looks like there isn't much room between the wall and the side berm. 

It seemed pretty clear that he didn't know exactly what to do when be started turning around and found his way blocked. It's hard to think on the clock if you see something you hadn't before or a scenario that had never been considered. By the time he got to the popper it was obviously OBE. In the seconds that followed I can see how it could be easy to make the wrong call to accept a popper challenge but I'm sure he was really (and rightfully should have been) expecting to be offered a reshoot. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 129
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

4 minutes ago, alma said:

Way up range is relative. Mason is moves scary fast and could cover that three yards in no time flat. The stage is a bit of an RO trap. It looks like there isn't much room between the wall and the side berm. 

It seemed pretty clear that he didn't know exactly what to do when be started turning around and found his way blocked. It's hard to think on the clock if you see something you hadn't before or a scenario that had never been considered. By the time he got to the popper it was obviously OBE. In the seconds that followed I can see how it could be easy to make the wrong call to accept a popper challenge but I'm sure he was really (and rightfully should have been) expecting to be offered a reshoot. 

He may be fast. He may have been in new territory. But the RO didn't feel a reshoot was warranted. Had the shooter just done what he needed to do and not stopped to ask directions I truly believe on of two things would have happened. Either everybody got uprange fast enough and no harm no foul or he may have passed the RO AND THE RO would have stopped him and offered a reshoot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to see the video.

 

If I turned around to run back and engage a popper and the two ROs were standing in my way, I would stop too. It is ridiculous to say that they aren't interfering, if they are that close behind you and you have to retreat uprange. If their positioning is what caused the hesitation, then they were interfering, right? 

 

I'm not saying it is bad ROing or anything, just that in that situation it was interference. S--- happens, tape em up and shoot it again. I have gotten interference calls for turning to run uprange and having to hesitate to wait for the RO to move. This is no different in my mind. 

 

Now I really want to see the video.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am totally confused. 

 

For future references, if I were that shooter, I should:

 

1. Turn to run into the ROs while yelling "stay out of my way"

2.  "Try" to point the gun in a way that is not sweeping shooter himself, any ROs and yet still not breaking 180

 

I think #2 is nearly impossible in some scenarios.  What if the ROs unintentionally create an unsafe condition, but still do not call "stop", e.g. standing in the way where you cannot avoid sweeping the ROs without either breaking 180 or sweeping the shooter himself?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JusticeOfToren said:

I am totally confused. 

 

For future references, if I were that shooter, I should:

 

1. Turn to run into the ROs while yelling "stay out of my way"

2.  "Try" to point the gun in a way that is not sweeping shooter himself, any ROs and yet still not breaking 180

 

I think #2 is nearly impossible in some scenarios.  What if the ROs unintentionally create an unsafe condition, but still do not call "stop", e.g. standing in the way where you cannot avoid sweeping the ROs without either breaking 180 or sweeping the shooter himself?

No need to say anything. Just shoot the stage there will either be interference , DQ or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

No need to say anything. Just shoot the stage there will either be interference , DQ or not.

 

not sure that's great advice. first off, no one wants to get dq'd, especially if its due to an RO standing there not moving out of the way. Most of us don't really want to run uprange of the RO for any reason. I know when it happened to me, I stopped, about even with the RO (who was just standing there), looking at him saying 'c'mon man, i'm trying to go that way'.

 

OTOH, it's not clear from the description whether the shooter really wanted to run back or not. If you just stand there and say 'dang', the RO will eventually ask if you are finished, and there will be no interference call coming.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a safer approach, but will be slow, is to push the RO with your weak hand up range while you run up range.  That way, the RO won't end up "down range" once you run past him/her. 

 

Just curious, what does the rule say if I ran up range past RO, resulting in the RO being down range?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, JusticeOfToren said:

I think a safer approach, but will be slow, is to push the RO with your weak hand up range while you run up range.  That way, the RO won't end up "down range" once you run past him/her. 

 

Just curious, what does the rule say if I ran up range past RO, resulting in the RO being down range?

The rules don't say anything about an RO being downrange. But they do address sweeping. Unfortunately sweeping is sweeping.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, JusticeOfToren said:

Just curious, what does the rule say if I ran up range past RO, resulting in the RO being down range?

as far as I know, nothing. I have accidentally been stuck downrange of a shooter when they moved quickly and unexpectedly. Fortunately they were shooting the other way, so no interference.

 

However I would be *very* concerned about doing it as a competitor, because now I can't necessarily be sure I'm not sweeping the RO just because my gun is pointed downrange. I have to keep track of the RO too, which means I may run into stuff. You don't get a break on sweeping the RO just because he is being slow, or obstinate, or dumb.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

not sure that's great advice. first off, no one wants to get dq'd, especially if its due to an RO standing there not moving out of the way. Most of us don't really want to run uprange of the RO for any reason. I know when it happened to me, I stopped, about even with the RO (who was just standing there), looking at him saying 'c'mon man, i'm trying to go that way'.

 

OTOH, it's not clear from the description whether the shooter really wanted to run back or not. If you just stand there and say 'dang', the RO will eventually ask if you are finished, and there will be no interference call coming.

The RO's were not simply standing there. They knew he might come back so they stayed alert. When the shooter turned they jumped. But then he stopped. Then he took off and the RO's got out of his way just fine. I still say stopping to ask a question is where things turned away from his favor. Should just turn and go and let the RO's either get out of the way or stop you if they can't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

The RO's were not simply standing there. They knew he might come back so they stayed alert. When the shooter turned they jumped. But then he stopped. Then he took off and the RO's got out of his way just fine. I still say stopping to ask a question is where things turned away from his favor. Should just turn and go and let the RO's either get out of the way or stop you if they can't.

 

I'm not necessarily talking about this situation. I wasn't there, haven't seen the video, haven't talked to anyone directly involved.

 

Just saying that in general, i'm probably going to stop and say something before I get more than a foot or two uprange of the RO. It's just not safe to have someone downrange of you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Sarge said:

The RO's were not simply standing there. They knew he might come back so they stayed alert. When the shooter turned they jumped. But then he stopped. Then he took off and the RO's got out of his way just fine. I still say stopping to ask a question is where things turned away from his favor. Should just turn and go and let the RO's either get out of the way or stop you if they can't.

 

Based on a further review of the video, this is bull.  They were completely surprised. The second RO had no business being anywhere near where he was, and the timer RO was definitely caught flat footed and unaware that steel had not activated the prop.

I agree with what you say about the shooter stopping to ask questions is where he somewhat blew his chances, but he wasn't thinking about that at the time, I'm sure. he was just thinking this dude is right on top of me, how am I supposed to back up.

The shooter is about one step up range of the RO when he stops and starts wondering what to do next. At that point it's RO interference. 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Sounds a little complicated a decision to make in 1-2 seconds, on the clock ....    :huh:

 

This thread is basically teaching people they should run into the RO because we can't expect them to have any common sense.

 

As a CRO, I'd prefer not to get ran into, but if I'm in your way I guess I deserve it, based on the precedent set by this decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

 

Based on a further review of the video, this is bull.  They were completely surprised. The second RO had no business being anywhere near where he was, and the timer RO was definitely caught flat footed and unaware that steel had not activated the prop.

I agree with what you say about the shooter stopping to ask questions is where he somewhat blew his chances, but he wasn't thinking about that at the time, I'm sure. he was just thinking this dude is right on top of me, how am I supposed to back up.

The shooter is about one step up range of the RO when he stops and starts wondering what to do next. At that point it's RO interference. 

 

 

 

Matt, do you have the video?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

 

Based on a further review of the video, this is bull.  They were completely surprised. The second RO had no business being anywhere near where he was, and the timer RO was definitely caught flat footed and unaware that steel had not activated the prop.

I agree with what you say about the shooter stopping to ask questions is where he somewhat blew his chances, but he wasn't thinking about that at the time, I'm sure. he was just thinking this dude is right on top of me, how am I supposed to back up.

The shooter is about one step up range of the RO when he stops and starts wondering what to do next. At that point it's RO interference. 

 

 

 

All of this 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't understand why the RO was so reticent to declare that there was interference and just offer the reshoot. There wasn't any gaming going on here, obviously. More of the "us vs. them" attitude on display.

 

Do these ROs all know that no one at NROI keeps score for working matches and you don't get demerits on your permanent record because of a reshoot on your stage? It happens to everyone and we all strive to avoid them, but sheesh, some of these guys go way off the deep end taking stuff personally. Walkthrough the stage in the other guy's Salomons and see if it doesn't change your perspective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

Based on a further review of the video, this is bull.  They were completely surprised. The second RO had no business being anywhere near where he was, and the timer RO was definitely caught flat footed and unaware that steel had not activated the prop.

I agree with what you say about the shooter stopping to ask questions is where he somewhat blew his chances, but he wasn't thinking about that at the time, I'm sure. he was just thinking this dude is right on top of me, how am I supposed to back up.

The shooter is about one step up range of the RO when he stops and starts wondering what to do next. At that point it's RO interference. 

 

 

 

Everybody was fully aware he missed the steal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jester121 said:

I don't understand why the RO was so reticent to declare that there was interference and just offer the reshoot. There wasn't any gaming going on here, obviously. More of the "us vs. them" attitude on display.

 

Do these ROs all know that no one at NROI keeps score for working matches and you don't get demerits on your permanent record because of a reshoot on your stage? It happens to everyone and we all strive to avoid them, but sheesh, some of these guys go way off the deep end taking stuff personally. Walkthrough the stage in the other guy's Salomons and see if it doesn't change your perspective.

The only us vs them I see going on is here in the thread. How do you know there "obviously" was no gaming going on? It crossed my mind for sure but it was just a thought. Kind of like the shooter saying he would have easily outran the RO. He didn't KNOW that. Until he would have actually done it he can only assume he would. If I tanked a stage and even thought I saw an avenue to a reshoot I'd do what I could to get it. Short of paying $100 of course.

  Most RO's are shooters so we could end up on either side of this. But the vast majority of shooters never RO a major match so they don't know how tough it can be to strictly abide by rules. Solomons hurt my feet. Too narrow.

  

Edited by Sarge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Everybody was fully aware he missed the steal.

 

Why did they both appear to crap their pants when the shooter turned around?

Actually, why was RO #2 in the hallway AT ALL?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jester121 said:

I don't understand why the RO was so reticent to declare that there was interference and just offer the reshoot. There wasn't any gaming going on here, obviously. More of the "us vs. them" attitude on display.

 

Do these ROs all know that no one at NROI keeps score for working matches and you don't get demerits on your permanent record because of a reshoot on your stage? It happens to everyone and we all strive to avoid them, but sheesh, some of these guys go way off the deep end taking stuff personally. Walkthrough the stage in the other guy's Salomons and see if it doesn't change your perspective.

 

Every time I witness a reshoot, due to timer not right, someone pasted targets too early or REF, I have never seen the ROs being happy about that.  This is especially true in big matches where time pressure of must running through a squad within X minutes is very very high.  

 

I think major matches should take into account of some percentages of reshoot as inevitable into their scheduling.  That may give the ROs much needed buffer to not "forced/reluctant to accept the reshoot" but rather embrace it willingly.

Edited by JusticeOfToren
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

Why did they both appear to crap their pants when the shooter turned around?

Actually, why was RO #2 in the hallway AT ALL?

 

They looked to be caught completely off guard. If they say that's the steel didn't fall then it certainly didn't cross theirs minds that the shooter might want to come back for it. Sorry, Sarge, but this was an RO fail. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Me thinks it's sad that we have to create an unsafe environment to fix this. The only thing you can do is run over or past the RO. 

 

As for Arbs. It's really really important that you word them correctly.  Though in this case, this should have been handled by the RM at the stage. As for a conversation on the clock, that is not wise on the part of the shooter, but if the RO says anything other than "stop" or "if" then it's interference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...