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Area 5 Arb


waktasz

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Was anyone else there to see this? I was there for the aftermath and briefly saw video of the incident, and saw Foley tell the shooter to arb...which he, astonishingly, lost.

 

For those of you that were there, it was on stage 2. He hit the activator popper on the edge and it didn't fall. He got all the way to the end of the stage and realized the drop turner was still facing away, so he turned to run back for it, and both ROs were in his way. He stopped, and after "if you are finished...", he unloaded and was done. RO, CRO, RM and Arb committee somehow decided that there was no RO interference.  It's a stunning result, IMO. What was the shooter supposed to do? Run uprange and leave the ROs in his dust?

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YES!, this is exactly what they should have done, I had to do just that at the 2015 Nats in Utah when I dropped a needed mag at the start and the RO followed me to the end and when I yelled I was going back she stood there, and I ran right past her with the pistol pointed down range and away from her.... the Scoring RO had to yell Stop because she was vapor locked.  Needless to say I got a reshoot.  RO's need to be very aware and are just like refs, just part of the playing surface.

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He never should have stopped and ULSC.  He should have yelled at the RO that they were in his way.  Sounds to me like he should have won the arb case either way.

 

I once got uprange of the scoring guy at a match because he tripped when I was running uprange and he was trying to backpeddle to stay ahead of me.  RO called a stop and I got a reshoot.  I never engaged any targets or had any intention of shooting with a guy down range.  I just knew that if I didn't get the RO to call a stop and I just stood there the time would keep ticking.

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Some more facts.....

 

the arbitration cited Rules concerning dq's not RO interference. So the committee asked for the RO and CRO to come explain what he was dq'ed for. 

 

The shooter stopped and asked if he could go back uprange after turning. The RO said yes and he went back to the steel. He chose not to shoot it.

 

the shooter asked for calibration on the steel and lost. 

 

Shooter never asked for a reshoot but instead asked for calibration. 

 

Arbitration isn't allowed to ask for video or they would have. 

 

If he would have asked for a reshoot and arbitrated before calibration, he would have likely got a reshoot. 

 

I would love to see the video.

Edited by mach1soldier
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I have seen it he turned to run and the ro's were blocking the path he would have created an unsafe situation if he ran back to the other position like he intended.

 

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11 minutes ago, mach1soldier said:

Some more facts.....

 

the arbitration cited Rules concerning dq's not RO interference. So the committee asked for the RO and CRO to come explain what he was dq'ed for. 

 

The shooter stopped and asked if he could go back uprange after turning. The RO said yes and he went back to the steel. He chose not to shoot it.

 

the shooter asked for calibration on the steel and lost. 

 

Shooter never asked for a reshoot but instead asked for calibration. 

 

Arbitration isn't allowed to ask for video or they would have. 

 

If he would have asked for a reshoot and arbitrated before calibration, he would have likely got a reshoot. 

 

I would love to see the video.

 

I was wondering if the issue was how the arb form was filled out. I obviously never saw it. I must not have seen the full video either because I didn't realize he went all the way back to the steel

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He was most likely getting a reshoot based on what we read but because he put that he was dq'ed, we investigated further. 

 

I have never been on an arbitration committee before this but how you write it, and the rule you cite is important.

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Area 6 this year I dropped a mag at the start of a stage that I learned I needed at the end. The female RO told me I could not return uprange of her to retreive it and finish the stage, when she saw I was turning to run up range from her.

 

I roughly told her yes I can and started to do so, she said "stop". There was a pow-wow and I was awarded a re-shoot for her RO interference. So this is not uncommon.

 

Sounds like the shooter got flummoxed in the confusion about which path to choose to get the result they wanted. Lesson learned for all of us.

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14 minutes ago, AWLAZS said:

I have seen it he turned to run and the ro's were blocking the path he would have created an unsafe situation if he ran back to the other position like he intended.

 

 

Did he stop and ask the RO if he could walk uprange to reshoot the steel?

 

did he ask for calibration on steel? 

 

My tendency is always to side with the ahokter because I think the rules arent usually in their favor and I have had RO interference cost me dearly at matches. 

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If he wanted a reshoot for ro interference why did he go back and look at the steel?

 

Why would you challenge the steel being in calibration when the best outcome is it fails is a reshoot? 

 

And then he arbed a dq that he didn't receive? 

 

I feel like something is missing. That order of events sounds wrong. 

 

Lots of people called for calibration on edge hits at area 5 and I only heard of one person getting lucky and having the steel stand. 

Edited by Kraj
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99.9% of the time you will lose on a edge hit if you call for a calibration.  Speculation:  If the ROs blocked his retreat, the shooter should have (1) Asked for a reshoot immediately  (2) If denied, call for the RM.  An ARB probably would not have been needed. 

 

 

 

 

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So the moral of the story is just to haul ass uprange and create an unsafe condition to the point where the RO is forced to call stop.  Then there's no messing with asking for calibrations or having to arb.

 

 

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I was there and saw it all unfold. Through a snafu of some type I was not the CRO of the stage and was just doing my duty as target guard for this squad.

 Key bits and pieces are missing, others are misrepresented. Things were said by Mike Foley indeed. I for one like the guy a lot but he probably should not have gotten involved. 

  There were some serious misunderstandings of chapter 11 procedures, especially on the side of the shooter and his mom.

  Most here think it is amazing he didn't win it but from what I witnessed he never had a chance.

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20 minutes ago, d_striker said:

So the moral of the story is just to haul ass uprange and create an unsafe condition to the point where the RO is forced to call stop.  Then there's no messing with asking for calibrations or having to arb.

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. Keep in mind you can still get DQed for sweeping an RO if you outrun him and do indeed sweep him. But yes, the moral of the story is to haul ass, don't turn and ask the RO what you are supposed to do etc and then ask for a calibration, then ask for a reshoot and then Arb it. In the end that just looks like a desperate move to get a redo on a bad run

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1 hour ago, lcs said:

99.9% of the time you will lose on a edge hit if you call for a calibration.  Speculation:  If the ROs blocked his retreat, the shooter should have (1) Asked for a reshoot immediately  (2) If denied, call for the RM.  An ARB probably would not have been needed. 

 

 

 

 

Most likely you are correct in this case.

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1 hour ago, Kraj said:

If he wanted a reshoot for ro interference why did he go back and look at the steel?

 

Why would you challenge the steel being in calibration when the best outcome is it fails is a reshoot? 

 

And then he arbed a dq that he didn't receive? 

 

I feel like something is missing. That order of events sounds wrong. 

 

Lots of people called for calibration on edge hits at area 5 and I only heard of one person getting lucky and having the steel stand. 

Yes, things are missing.

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17 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Area 6 this year I dropped a mag at the start of a stage that I learned I needed at the end. The female RO told me I could not return uprange of her to retreive it and finish the stage, when she saw I was turning to run up range from her.

 

I roughly told her yes I can and started to do so, she said "stop". There was a pow-wow and I was awarded a re-shoot for her RO interference. So this is not uncommon.

 

Sounds like the shooter got flummoxed in the confusion about which path to choose to get the result they wanted. Lesson learned for all of us.

Sounds like a terrible RO but this was not the case in this situation. The RO's were cocked and locked ready to move. As a matter of fact after playing 20 questions with the RO the shooter did indeed haul ass up range and never passed an RO.

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17 hours ago, AWLAZS said:

I have seen it he turned to run and the ro's were blocking the path he would have created an unsafe situation if he ran back to the other position like he intended.

 

The RO's were actually outside the fault lines if I remember correctly. His path was never "blocked".

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18 hours ago, waktasz said:

Was anyone else there to see this? I was there for the aftermath and briefly saw video of the incident, and saw Foley tell the shooter to arb...which he, astonishingly, lost.

 

For those of you that were there, it was on stage 2. He hit the activator popper on the edge and it didn't fall. He got all the way to the end of the stage and realized the drop turner was still facing away, so he turned to run back for it, and both ROs were in his way. He stopped, and after "if you are finished...", he unloaded and was done. RO, CRO, RM and Arb committee somehow decided that there was no RO interference.  It's a stunning result, IMO. What was the shooter supposed to do? Run uprange and leave the ROs in his dust?

This account is not entirely accurate. He actually returned to the steel then was cleared.

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There is no need to create an unsafe situation in this scenario. If the RO's are blocking the retreating path all the shooter needs to do is retreat far enough to allow the RO to touch them due to being in the way. There is no need to retreat to the point of having an RO down range of the gun.

 

I didn't see the video on this specific scenario so I can't provide an opinion on the specific subject.

 

But this kind of stuff happens primarily because the RO's get lazy and or have crappy situational awareness. If I am ROing a stage and see that a shooter has obviously missed a target which they may retreat to reengage I will give them a wider than normal distance and be fully prepared to retreat aggressively if they decide to come back for it. The same goes for shooters dropping mags that you know will be needed later to complete the stage. The vast majority of the time there is no need to crowd shooters while ROing them or chase them around the stage. If you are constantly chasing shooters around a stage while ROing them, then you are doing it wrong. 

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Sound advice. But the stage had a long aisle way down the right side to finish so all we could do was follow them , stay aware of circumstances and be prepared to move. Both RO's were prepared to move and actually jumped like cats when shooter turned around but then he stopped and wanted to know what to do. From that point on my opinion was, he lost a reshoot and had no chance at winning an arb.

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3 hours ago, Sarge said:

The RO's were actually outside the fault lines if I remember correctly. His path was never "blocked".

 

Sarge's account is not entirely accurate.

The second RO was way, way inside the fault lines and they were boxing him in. 

hjsr7h4h.jpg

Edited by alma
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2 hours ago, alma said:

 

Sarge's account is not entirely accurate.

The second RO was way, way inside the fault lines and they were boxing him in. 

hjsr7h4h.jpg

The scoring RO is in the shooting area. I stand corrected! But he appears to be way uprange from the shooter and was not in the way.

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