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Setting up a M&P 15-22 for Steel Challenge

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1 minute ago, 1911luvr said:


It's the one of the first things I do to a 10/22. It's cheap insurance.


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I put one in my 22/45 and it really helped...just wasn't sure about the 15-22.  Thanks.

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If you're referring ro a 10/22 absolutely install a Kidd extractor if you're using an aftermarket barrel.  I can't speak to the 15-22 though.  

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14 hours ago, jkrispies said:

Yeah, I hate Federal.  My 10/22 will eat Golden Bullets all day long though-- every bit as good as CCI, but I'll shoot that first if given a choice.  I'm 100% certain that if we can get you a higher quality dot, your times will improve markedly.  Which means that I need to practice more!!!

What is the suggested dot and MOA?  I just threw what I had on what began as my daughters gun to learn the ar platform and now I am hooked on steel.  I think I read here large MOA, like 8+. I have learned a lot on this forum, but sometimes it's just bits of conversation I catch.  Like the reference of either stretching out or choking up.  Have fought to find one spot.  Lots to learn.

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No experience with the 15-22. I run a 10-22 in SC. When I originally built the gun I just used a spare 4 MOA Burris FF 3 I had. I later swapped it for an 8 MOA and that made a significant difference. Much easier to acquire the dot. I now have a 12 MOA C-more I'll put on it next week. For SC regarding dot size, bigger is defiantly better. 

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10 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

What is the suggested dot and MOA?  I just threw what I had on what began as my daughters gun to learn the ar platform and now I am hooked on steel.  I think I read here large MOA, like 8+. I have learned a lot on this forum, but sometimes it's just bits of conversation I catch.  Like the reference of either stretching out or choking up.  Have fought to find one spot.  Lots to learn.

 

Hammer, it's funny that you say that you're shooting your daughter's gun and got hooked on it.  It's the same with me, I'm still shooting my daughter's gun, and have actually made GM with it.  Shoot what you've got, and when your daughter wants her gun back she'll have the best firearm on the line after all the "test firing" and improvements you've done on it!

 

Regarding dots, bigger is definitely better.  I currently use an 8moa C-More RTS2 on both my steel rifle and pistol.  Having said that, I acknowledge that the C-More isn't inexpensive.  If you go with a C-More Railway, it will save you some money and work nearly as well.  The only difference (I'm told) is that the dot isn't quite as bright, and it has a little more parallax, but neither should be significant enough to hold you back for what we shoot in Steel Challenge.  At the last world championship I squadded with Trenton Mitsuoka as he set the new world record in Rimfire Rifle Optics-- he uses a C-More Railway.

 

The one thing I'd caution on when picking a dot is to remember that this is a sport gun and not a defensive gun, so the sights should be picked accordingly.  I've shot several different types of sight in competition, and the biggest advantage that the C-More has over something like a Vortex Strikefire (beyond the dot size) is that the Strikefire has a very thick "frame" around the lens that blocks your view while transitioning from target to target.  I haven't looked through an actual Aimpoint PRO or similar style, but I'd imagine that it's the same effect.  That potentially slows you down, and this game is about speed:  what you'll eventually discover is that the upper end of shooting speed is actually much more about visual speed than physical speed.  Anyway, my point is that a dot I'd pick for a purely home defense gun (such as an Aimpoint PRO) which is built to take a beating is not necessarily the one I'd pick for a game gun.  

 

I obviously recommend the C-More RTS2 as my first choice of those I've used.  I could also go with an Aimpoint H1 or H2 with a larger dot (I've looked through a custom one with a 6moa-- nice!!!!), and while I haven't had the opportunity to look through a Trijicon MRO I suspect that might be a good choice for a dual purpose gun (such as a PCC for both HD and SC) depending on how bright the little 2moa dot can be cranked up.  I've used the FastFire iii with the smaller dot (3moa?) and it was not bright enough but I wouldn't rule out trying the 8moa version on the assumption that the larger dot might be faster to pick up even with the dimmer light source.  On a budget, the Bushnell TRS-25 is hit and miss-- the construction is good enough but I had one with a nice bright dot, and then I had one with a dot that wasn't bright enough; I think those come down to luck of the draw.  Short of the RTS2, I think a nice budget-ish choice is the C-More Railway with an 8moa or larger module, which you can find used here on the forum.

 

I hope that helps some.

Edited by jkrispies

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15 hours ago, jkrispies said:

 

Hammer, it's funny that you say that you're shooting your daughter's gun and got hooked on it.  It's the same with me, I'm still shooting my daughter's gun, and have actually made GM with it.  Shoot what you've got, and when your daughter wants her gun back she'll have the best firearm on the line after all the "test firing" and improvements you've done on it!

 

Regarding dots, bigger is definitely better.  I currently use an 8moa C-More RTS2 on both my steel rifle and pistol.  Having said that, I acknowledge that the C-More isn't inexpensive.  If you go with a C-More Railway, it will save you some money and work nearly as well.  The only difference (I'm told) is that the dot isn't quite as bright, and it has a little more parallax, but neither should be significant enough to hold you back for what we shoot in Steel Challenge.  At the last world championship I squadded with Trenton Mitsuoka as he set the new world record in Rimfire Rifle Optics-- he uses a C-More Railway.

 

The one thing I'd caution on when picking a dot is to remember that this is a sport gun and not a defensive gun, so the sights should be picked accordingly.  I've shot several different types of sight in competition, and the biggest advantage that the C-More has over something like a Vortex Strikefire (beyond the dot size) is that the Strikefire has a very thick "frame" around the lens that blocks your view while transitioning from target to target.  I haven't looked through an actual Aimpoint PRO or similar style, but I'd imagine that it's the same effect.  That potentially slows you down, and this game is about speed:  what you'll eventually discover is that the upper end of shooting speed is actually much more about visual speed than physical speed.  Anyway, my point is that a dot I'd pick for a purely home defense gun (such as an Aimpoint PRO) which is built to take a beating is not necessarily the one I'd pick for a game gun.  

 

I obviously recommend the C-More RTS2 as my first choice of those I've used.  I could also go with an Aimpoint H1 or H2 with a larger dot (I've looked through a custom one with a 6moa-- nice!!!!), and while I haven't had the opportunity to look through a Trijicon MRO I suspect that might be a good choice for a dual purpose gun (such as a PCC for both HD and SC) depending on how bright the little 2moa dot can be cranked up.  I've used the FastFire iii with the smaller dot (3moa?) and it was not bright enough but I wouldn't rule out trying the 8moa version on the assumption that the larger dot might be faster to pick up even with the dimmer light source.  On a budget, the Bushnell TRS-25 is hit and miss-- the construction is good enough but I had one with a nice bright dot, and then I had one with a dot that wasn't bright enough; I think those come down to luck of the draw.  Short of the RTS2, I think a nice budget-ish choice is the C-More Railway with an 8moa or larger module, which you can find used here on the forum.

 

I hope that helps some.

First, thank you for the response.  Its always nice to interact with the upper level shooters.  Interesting you mention Mitsuoka because his videos can be attributed to some of my best improvements.  Would be amazing to shoot on that caliber of squad.

 

The more I have learned about USPSA and Steel Challenge, the less my defense world training is a part.  Though the 15-22 was originally meant to be a training platform, after the first steel challenge I went to and saw guys shooting them, it became something else.  The bushnell has worked well for me I think because I go against the speed set up grain and keep it at the far end of the receiver.  This minimizes how much of the outer frame my eye sees, so I think that's why I have been successful to the extent I have so far, but I do feel a plateau.  When I moved it closer, or attempted the vortex up close like in the video I mentioned, my eye picked up way too much of the frame.  I have been told the further out the dot is mounted the more accurate and more the frame disappears, however its a slower pick up and slower to transition.

 

So, I am all in on the full competitive end.  The 15-22 is now a dedicated steel gun.  So the C More is likely a route I want to pursue, and whichever one is the best at doing its job will be the preferred way to go.  This leaves me questions to those of more experience:

 

Where to mount it?  Closer to the eye, or further away.  Mitsuoka videos looks like he is in the middle, but that's a way different gun.  And with mounting, maintain AR type height?

 

And secondly, again, what is the preference for when to choke up on the fore end and when to stretch out?  I have fought to find a single location and its pretty much centered and I use a c clamp grip (thumb wrapped over top) with a magpul angled foregrip.  I think I like that it makes it easy to put pressure into my shoulder with the support hand.

 

Lastly, the skill I have struggled the most with - the first target pick up when it is forced to be to the right, meaning across the bottom of the chin to get a cheek weld if looking at the target waiting for the dot such as on speed option.  No matter how I practice this, it still kicks my butt trying to get there with any form of speed.

 

Thanks for any input.

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So here's where I should give my standard disclaimer:  If you ask 10 GM's how to shoot well, you will get 10 different answers, and all of them are correct.  Furthermore, anything I'm saying that I do today, I may very well be doing differently a year from now because I'm still learning myself, and certain techniques, etc., are best used by a shooter at X level of development, whereas a different technique may be better used by a shooter at Y level of development, and a third technique could be used by a shooter at Z level of development.  Like Einstein said, it's all relative.  Furthermore, yes, I'm a GM, but I'm what is politely known as a "paper GM" meaning that I haven't done anything of merit beyond shooting some really fast strings that made it onto my classifier.  The highest I've placed in a major is 7th, and this year my performance hasn't been less than stellar... though I think I cracked my problem and will test it later today....  Moving on...

 

Regarding dot placement, remember again that tactical needs are different than competitive needs.  A Navy SEAL needs real estate between his eye and the dot for things like BUIS, flip-to-side magnifier, and a big ol' set of night vision goggles.  We need to ensure that the bill of our baseball cap doesn't bump our sight.  By bringing it closer to the eye, you're essentially "making the lens bigger" so you can find the dot qucker when transitioning from target to target.  Anybody who tells you that the dot is more accurate when it's farther from the eye should produce some scientific data to back up the claim.  As for my personal experience, when I brought the dot from the front of the rail to the back of the rail, my times improved significantly.  I do have to say, though, that when I was using the TRS-25 it was at the front of my rail which would have "made the frame thinner" so I can see value there and could potentially move that type of dot forward for that reason.  As far as Trenton's placement, you'd have to ask him about why he has his equipment where, but bear in midn that a C-More Railway is a big dot that takes up a certain amount of real estate, and 10/22 has a lot less real estate than an AR-- my guess is that when it comes to placing a Railway, it is where it is.

 

As for height, yes, AR height.  In order to maintain a proper cheekweld, I'd recommend absolute co-witness height rather than 1/3 co-witness, but that's a matter of preference I suppose.

 

When it comes to forward grip, I'd lose the angled grip.  Needless weight.  As for choking up vs. not, personally I keep a single forward grip... and my stock doesn't leave any room for experimentation.  Generally, forward is better than rearward, but be comfortable.  I've seen guys stretched out like they're trying to dunk a basketball.  That's the wrong sport.

 

Regarding your ability to hit the far left target, you're now getting into questions of shooting order and index.  Shooting order is far too complex to get into here... and I think people make too much of it anyway.  Regarding index, you have two indexes in the shooting order:  your natural index, and your starting index.  To check your natural index, stand naturally in the shooting box, close your eyes, raise the gun into shooting position, and open your eyes.  Where the gun is pointed is your natural index.  By adjusting your feet, you can adjust your natural index to whichever plate you want, making it easier to shoot.  For instance, on Smoke and Hope, I make sure my natural index is on the stop plate.  Once you have that done, pick out the plate you want to start on (for Accellerator, I start on the plate to the far left), and without moving your feet, rotate your body over to a perfect index on that plate, "without moving anything other than the tip of the gun barrel" to the start flag, and tell the RO to go.  

 

If I'm understanding your question correctly regarding the far right Accelerator plate, I think you're having an issue with cheek weld on the first plate when it is far to your right.  Keep the gun mounted on your shoulder with a cheekweld, keeping the stock exactly where you want it with the cheekweld.  On your shoulder, the butt can be off it's normal spot.  When you bring the gun into firing position, slide it on your shoulder and use your cheek as a pivot point.  Use your cheek's pivot point to snap it into correct position.  This is a good skill to practice in dryfire, and it comes relatively quickly.

 

Edited by jkrispies

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5 hours ago, jkrispies said:

So here's where I should give my standard disclaimer:  If you ask 10 GM's how to shoot well, you will get 10 different answers, and all of them are correct.  Furthermore, anything I'm saying that I do today, I may very well be doing differently a year from now because I'm still learning myself, and certain techniques, etc., are best used by a shooter at X level of development, whereas a different technique may be better used by a shooter at Y level of development, and a third technique could be used by a shooter at Z level of development.  Like Einstein said, it's all relative.  Furthermore, yes, I'm a GM, but I'm what is politely known as a "paper GM" meaning that I haven't done anything of merit beyond shooting some really fast strings that made it onto my classifier.  The highest I've placed in a major is 7th, and this year my performance hasn't been less than stellar... though I think I cracked my problem and will test it later today....  Moving on...

 

Regarding dot placement, remember again that tactical needs are different than competitive needs.  A Navy SEAL needs real estate between his eye and the dot for things like BUIS, flip-to-side magnifier, and a big ol' set of night vision goggles.  We need to ensure that the bill of our baseball cap doesn't bump our sight.  By bringing it closer to the eye, you're essentially "making the lens bigger" so you can find the dot qucker when transitioning from target to target.  Anybody who tells you that the dot is more accurate when it's farther from the eye should produce some scientific data to back up the claim.  As for my personal experience, when I brought the dot from the front of the rail to the back of the rail, my times improved significantly.  I do have to say, though, that when I was using the TRS-25 it was at the front of my rail which would have "made the frame thinner" so I can see value there and could potentially move that type of dot forward for that reason.  As far as Trenton's placement, you'd have to ask him about why he has his equipment where, but bear in midn that a C-More Railway is a big dot that takes up a certain amount of real estate, and 10/22 has a lot less real estate than an AR-- my guess is that when it comes to placing a Railway, it is where it is.

 

As for height, yes, AR height.  In order to maintain a proper cheekweld, I'd recommend absolute co-witness height rather than 1/3 co-witness, but that's a matter of preference I suppose.

 

When it comes to forward grip, I'd lose the angled grip.  Needless weight.  As for choking up vs. not, personally I keep a single forward grip... and my stock doesn't leave any room for experimentation.  Generally, forward is better than rearward, but be comfortable.  I've seen guys stretched out like they're trying to dunk a basketball.  That's the wrong sport.

 

Regarding your ability to hit the far left target, you're now getting into questions of shooting order and index.  Shooting order is far too complex to get into here... and I think people make too much of it anyway.  Regarding index, you have two indexes in the shooting order:  your natural index, and your starting index.  To check your natural index, stand naturally in the shooting box, close your eyes, raise the gun into shooting position, and open your eyes.  Where the gun is pointed is your natural index.  By adjusting your feet, you can adjust your natural index to whichever plate you want, making it easier to shoot.  For instance, on Smoke and Hope, I make sure my natural index is on the stop plate.  Once you have that done, pick out the plate you want to start on (for Accellerator, I start on the plate to the far left), and without moving your feet, rotate your body over to a perfect index on that plate, "without moving anything other than the tip of the gun barrel" to the start flag, and tell the RO to go.  

 

If I'm understanding your question correctly regarding the far right Accelerator plate, I think you're having an issue with cheek weld on the first plate when it is far to your right.  Keep the gun mounted on your shoulder with a cheekweld, keeping the stock exactly where you want it with the cheekweld.  On your shoulder, the butt can be off it's normal spot.  When you bring the gun into firing position, slide it on your shoulder and use your cheek as a pivot point.  Use your cheek's pivot point to snap it into correct position.  This is a good skill to practice in dryfire, and it comes relatively quickly.

 

Well, I knew everything up to the last paragraph and holy crap that's the solution exactly. So simple.  Thanks a ton.  I would add something to your indexing discussion.  When I was first taught the things you described I was also taught to angle my feet out each way you are going to swing.  Amazingly enough, if done correctly, this can give a natural body stop at each end.  Smoke and hope being a good example where pointing each set of toes toward the outer targets gives you a natural place your body wants to stop. What I found is this means you don't have to slow coming into the target. When set right, you just stop where you pointed. Can almost shoot it without looking. Awesome piece of advice on the cheek weld....off to the basement to practice it.

Edited by Hammer002

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3 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

Well, I knew everything up to the last paragraph and holy crap that's the solution exactly. So simple.  Thanks a ton.  I would add something to your indexing discussion.  When I was first taught the things you described I was also taught to angle my feet out each way you are going to swing.  Amazingly enough, if done correctly, this can give a natural body stop at each end.  Smoke and hope being a good example where pointing each set of toes toward the outer targets gives you a natural place your body wants to stop. What I found is this means you don't have to slow coming into the target. When set right, you just stop where you pointed. Can almost shoot it without looking. Awesome piece of advice on the cheek weld....off to the basement to practice it.

:D

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I used a 15-22 from 2010-2014 in SC and RC. Final setup was S3G trigger, Taccom CF handguard, C-More, Allchin comp, Magpul Fixed Carbine stock. Never had an issue with it. But impossible to get the weight below about 4 lbs. 12 oz. Built an AR-22 instead. Same trigger, optic, and handguard, Taccom CF stock, Taccom alloy shrouded barrel, Taccom BCG parts, Mag Tech magnesium alloy LR. Result was 3 lbs. 0 oz. However due to a personal issue with Taccom I have not shot it in competition. Then built a 10/22. Kidd trigger, VQ UL CF barrel, Axiom stock, C-More, VQ CNC bolt, VQ FB comp. Result was 3 lbs. 4 oz. That is what I shoot today. Like my pistols I use 10 rd. mags only so the firearm starts out each run at the same exact weight (AR-22 used 15 Rd BDM mags loaded to 10). A few things different in the pictures as these are from experimental times.5941db8e4df6a_RaceAR22.thumb.jpg.1d21115ad2a2a6045d1aa24db79d0ae1.jpg

10-22A.jpg.edacbec8aa63a22d558fa271ac123988.jpg

Edited by photoracer

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What handguard, barrel, and barrel nut is this?
 
 
Handguard looks to be Taccom Carbon Fiber. And to make it work it's most likely sitting on the tacticool22 barrel nut adapter that allows standard AR barrel nuts. That's what I have on mine 8a115211d1b2da82eb609e462dfe9751.jpg

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