Bullet Getting Caught in the Rifling of Shadow 2 Barrel

[WiII]

I received 500 of these(http://www.precisionbullets.com/store.html) in 147gr. I loaded some to 1.135-1.147, they passed my Lyman gauge but got stuck in the rifling of my barrel. I reduced the oal length to the point at which they would drop and spin in the barrel. This turned out to be around 1.08.

 

I believe this is due to the profile of the bullet, specifically the width near the case mouth extending towards the nose. My bayou and xtreme bullets loads both work fine in this barrel.

 

I'm very new to CZ so any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  

 

Thanks.

[oteroman]

Throat the barrel.
Or live with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[shotgunone]

Get ahold of Matt Cheely,, Cheely Custom Guns.  I have sent him 2 barrels over the years. One on my STI open gun and one was my SP-01 Shadow.  Always sent a dummy round - no primer and no powder with the bullet of choice seated to the overall length of choice.  He will throat the barrel and give you a little bit more.

 

Use his web site to get ahold of him.  He gets back to you fast and he is fast doing the work.  He turned both barrels around the same day he got them. 

[MemphisMechanic]

If the Shadow 2 barrel isn't hardened, check with Patroit Defense or Grams Engineering.

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[adamge]

2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

If the Shadow 2 barrel isn't hardened, check with Patroit Defense or Grams Engineering.

 

It seems to be nitrided.

[PatriotDefense]

7 hours ago, adamge said:

It seems to be nitrided.

We can cut the Shadow 2 barrel, we've done many of them so far.......

[IHAVEGAS]

I'm guessing that once you cut through the surface of the barrel you lose any benefit from nitriding in that area. 

 

Since you already have found 2 bullets that work well (sns 147 tc at 1.15 is another), I'd be inclined to just feed it what it likes to eat.

 

Makes me wonder about another possibly relevant thing, a friend with a high round count shadow 1 has recently got into issues with light strikes, he has changed all of the firing control components with no effect. I'm wondering if the metal of the barrel can eventually get washed out and allow the bullet to go farther forward? 

Edited June 1, 2017 by IHAVEGAS

[PacMan]

On 5/31/2017 at 6:58 PM, WiII said:

I received 500 of these(http://www.precisionbullets.com/store.html) in 147gr. I loaded some to 1.135-1.147, they passed my Lyman gauge but got stuck in the rifling of my barrel. I reduced the oal length to the point at which they would drop and spin in the barrel. This turned out to be around 1.08.

 

I believe this is due to the profile of the bullet, specifically the width near the case mouth extending towards the nose. My bayou and xtreme bullets loads both work fine in this barrel.

 

I'm very new to CZ so any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  

 

Thanks.

 

That's what I had to do with 115 and 124 gr Precision Delta JHP bullets to work in both P09 and CTS, 1.083 OAL.  Round nose bullets do not have the same issue due to bullet profile.

[IDescribe]

Will you do not NEED to ream your barrel.  Here's what's going on and what you can do to help you make decisions.

EVERY bullet has a maximum OAL in a particular pistol, where by maximum I mean the maximum OAL you can load to without the bullet engaging the lands when in battery. That maximum OAL is different for every bullet.  And it's different for a particular bullet when you switch pistols.  Inside the chamber, there is a step against which the case mouth headspaces.  And there is a place forward of that where the rifling begins.  The space in between the headspacing step and the rifling is called the Free Bore (or throat).  Different manufacturers will have free bores of different lengths, and that is what causes bullets have different maximum OALs in different pistols.  The angle or curve of a bullet's ogive is what causes different bullets to have different maximum OALs in the same pistol.

I made a couple changes to an image I already had to help you see what's going on.  The image below does NOT represent particular bullets or weights.  It's just meant to help you conceptualize what is happening.

Note that in the first two, the Round Nose and the JHP, the space between the ogive and the rifling (inside the gold circle) is identical IN SPITE OF the two cartridges having significant OAL differences.  ALSO, if you compare that same space between the JHP and the truncated cone, you'll see that the space is significantly different, despite their having identical OALs.   This shows that when it comes to OAL, what happens with one bullet is not the same as what happens with another.  This is why what's happening with the other bullets is irrelevant to what's happening with this one.

 

 

Now to your problem.  YOUR bullet is loaded TOO long for that chamber.  It's not that the bullet doesn't work in your pistol (at least it's too early at this point to say).  It's not that the chamber needs to be reamed.  All you can say at this point is that it is loaded too long for the chamber.  And that is entirely predictable because you didn't see how that bullet worked in your chamber when you starting to develop the load.  That should be literally your first step in load development.  The box arrives in the mail. Your wife gives you the evil eye because you bought more shooting stuff.  Then you open the box, pull out a bullet, and skip over to your reloading space, where you immediately determine your max OAL for that bullet in whatever pistol you plan on shooting it in.  That's what you should do with every new bullet.

There are a couple of ways to do that.  The first is to find a case that you fired in that pistol, AND that will hold the new bullet snugly, but not so snugly that it won't slide in and out in the case with a little force.  THEN you pull the barrel from the pistol, hold the barrel parallel to the floor, and slide the case and bullet into the chamber, all the way, until it stops.  THEN slowly pull it back out, and the case should should hold the bullet where the rifling pushed it back into the case.  THAT should be very close to the max OAL for that bullet in that chamber.  Some people will do that several times until they can see a number around which the several OALs are clustering, and consider THAT the true max OAL.  THEN they knock off .010-.015 for a working max, because you and your gear will inevitably create some variation, and you don't want that variation to put some bullets back into the lands, so knocking off a cushion of .010-.015 from the true max is a good practice.

The second method, which is what I use, is to do the above method just once, then make a dummy round about .020 LONGER.  I resize, bell, seat to the too long OAL, and crimp.  From there I check it in the chamber too see if it will chamber all the way AND spin freely. Because of the extra .020 that I added, it should not spin freely on the first test.  Then I seat it .003 deeper.  Then test it again.  Then seat deeper.  Then test it again.  And so on and so on until it chambers all the way AND spins freely.  You will hit a point, where it chambers all the way and spins with a little drag.  That means it's still touching the rifling.  Keep lowering OAL until it spins freely.   That is my true max for that bullet with that pistol.  Then, I will usually knock of .010 as a starting point for load development.

That's how to determine the max so that you don't have the problem you're having.  There is, however, another problem.  It is possible to load too short, especially with 147gr bullets.  If you follow the case walls from the case mouth to the head, there is point where the case walls start to get thicker.  In 9mm Luger, this spot is typically at .300 from the case mouth.  You should consider .300 the hard deck or "mechanical limit" for seating depth. If the bullet base is beveled, you can get a little deeper than that, but once the shank of the bullet hits .300, if you go deeper, it will either swage the bullet base, which is not good for accuracy, or it was bow out the case walls, which isn't good for feeding and function, or it will do both.  It's just easiest to consider .300 the maximum seating depth unless you absolutely need to go deeper, and even then, you're not going to get too much deeper without running into problems.  The hard deck/mechanical limit is represented in that image by the vertical green line.  It is not to scale.  I just threw one in.  But you can see what you want to avoid in that fifth image, labeled "too short".

Easy seating depth formula -- CASE LENGTH + BULLET LENGTH - OAL = SEATING DEPTH    Do NOT measure case lengths individually.  For 9mm just, use .750.

Here's the bad news.  When I look at that Precision 147gr FP, that profile looks like it's going to lead to especially deep seating.  YOU might find that your MAX OAL with this bullet based on rifling engagement is shorter than your minimum OAL based on not seating the base deeper than than the hard deck.  If that happens, THEN you have two options -- ream the barrel to make the throat a little longer so that you can seat longer, OR don't use that bullet.  

Reaming the barrel is popular here in the Benos forums, where the majority will tell you it's easy to do and causes ZERO problems.  If you head over to CZFirearms.us, you'll get the opposite, where people will recommend against it and warn you that it may or may not cause problems, and that if it does, accuracy will be the problem. I really don't know the probability either way, but I can tell you that if I bought a pair of shoes that were too small for my feet, I damned sure wouldn't cut a quarter inch off the fronts of my toes to make theshoes fit, and if I spent $1300 on a pistol, I damned sure wouldn't cut the pistol so that I could try out a bullet.  Finding a bullet that won't work at all is a rarity, but the exact bullet you bought is one that I have wanted to buy but chose not to precisely because it looks like an OAL problem for a CZ.  And at the other end of the spectrum, finding a bullet that works well is easy.  There are lots and lots.

If you must use a 147gr bullet, I'd recommend ACME or SNS, or, better yet, the ACME 145 RN.    

 

Can you provide us with the length of the actual bullet, please?  I am curious.

[SlvrDragon50]

Awesome post. I have the same experience as OP and require 1.075 OAL with these ACME 124gr RN to spin freely and pass the plunk test. I think it's the profile of the bullet since I have a factory 124gr RN that spins at 1.12 OAL.

[IDescribe]

Right.  My Shadow's throat is shorter than average, and I have to load that ACME 124gr RN at 1.06.  It's just how CZ pistols are.  I haven't personally had a bullet I couldn't make work, but I know of few times that it's happened.  

[IDescribe]

Will, I just found an old post from Smitty79 (but on another forum) saying that he couldn't get the Precision 147 to work in his unmodified CZ, and Smitty knows what he's doing.  It's DEFINITELY still worth your going through the process, but it may be that these are a no-go, unless you want to ream.  I'd recommend you shoot them in another pistol, and buy more appropriate bullets for your CZ. 

ALSO, you mentioned you are new to CZ.  In terms of recoil impulse, I personally prefer 124/125gr or 135gr bullets for my heavier, all-metal pistols.  And I prefer 135gr or 145/147gr bullets for my lighter polymer pistols.  If you learned to like heavier bullets in a lighter polymer pistol, like a Glock or an M&P or any of the other polymers, you might want to try a 124/125gr in your CZ.  The extra weight washes out the snappier recoil impulse.  You won't have insurmountable OAL concerns.  They'll shoot flatter.  And recoil management comes from your grip, shoulders, legs, and feet, not from you bullet choice.    Just a thought.  

And don't forget to post that bullet length.  Still curious.  

[SlvrDragon50]

47 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

Right.  My Shadow's throat is shorter than average, and I have to load that ACME 124gr RN at 1.06.  It's just how CZ pistols are.  I haven't personally had a bullet I couldn't make work, but I know of few times that it's happened.  

Wait. You're still using the ACME 124gr RNs at that short OAL?

[IDescribe]

3 hours ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

 

Wait. You're still using the ACME 124gr RNs at that short OAL?

 

 

Yes?  The complete answer is that while I do have some left over, I haven't shot those in quite a while in any gun.  If I wanted to load those leftovers for the Shadow, however, YES, I would need to load them at 1.06.   

Is that surprising?  Did ACME go back to their old, longer-loading RN mould?  

[SlvrDragon50]

6 hours ago, IDescribe said:

 

Yes?  The complete answer is that while I do have some left over, I haven't shot those in quite a while in any gun.  If I wanted to load those leftovers for the Shadow, however, YES, I would need to load them at 1.06.   

Is that surprising?  Did ACME go back to their old, longer-loading RN mould?  

Ah. I interpreted it as that was your preferred bullet. I'm trying to figure out the crimp and seating with my new press, and 1.0795 seems so short already! Haven't been able to remove the bullets though so I can't check seating depth

 

No clue if they went back to an older mould as I'm just starting reloading.

[IDescribe]

Got it.   I'm sure they're still using the same mould as the ones I have, then.    As to my preferred bullet...

My Shadow shoots better with bullets over-sized .001 over standard.  My current go-to for my Shadow is the Precision Delta 38 SUPER (sized .356) 124gr RN.  Excellent accuracy.  And it's 8.9 cents/bullet to my doorstep.   If my Shadow were my choice for action shooting these days, and I was shooting high volume through it, I would seek out an over-sized coated lead option for it to save the couple cents per bullet, but for how much I shoot it, the PD 38 Super bullets are cheap enough.

 

6 hours ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

I'm trying to figure out the crimp and seating with my new press, and 1.0795 seems so short already! Haven't been able to remove the bullets though so I can't check seating depth

 

If you're seating those ACME 124gr RN at 1.079, your seating depth is about .240, which is nothing to worry about. 

How quickly pressure builds and what it peaks at are what we want to control, and how we can get ourselves into trouble if we don't.  The four biggest factors that influence that are how fast the powder burns, how much powder we use, the weight of the bullet, and the initial size of the combustion chamber (which is determined by seating depth).

People will look at a 124gr bullet with an OAL of 1.08 and a seating depth of .240 and think "Whoah!  That OAL is super short!"  Then that same person will have no reaction at all to a 147gr TCFP loaded to an OAL of 1.13, which seems acceptably long.  The reality, however, is that the 147gr bullet at 1.13 is likely to have a seating depth down around .280/290, and between that and its higher weight, the 147 deserves far more of your attention and concern.  

I think all CZ loaders go through that.  I did.  It dawned on me one day when I was looking at data for 147gr bullets, of which I had loaded and shot thousands from a number of different manufacturers, AND that I loaded with seating depths around .290/.300, AND that I had loaded with powders with extremely fast burn rates -- it dawned on me that worrying over short OALs on 124gr bullets was kind of silly in terms of safety.  

Don't sweat it.  

As to crimp, you can set it for .379 for 9mm and be done with it.  If you ever want to start shooting precision events with 9mm at 50 yards, it might be worth tuning crimp to particular bullets, .377, .378, or .379, but not for action shooting.  It's a waste of time.  Just go to .379 (even .380) and be done with it.  

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by IDescribe

[SlvrDragon50]

Thanks! I got my crimp to 0.379 now, but I've been worrying a ton about the OAL. Though I do want to move to 147gr eventually which is probably why I am a bit worried, but I will be trying different bullet profiles.

[WiII]

Thanks everyone for your helpful responses everyone. 

 

IDescribe, I especially appreciate your detailed responses. I will post again tonight with the bullet's length and a proper follow up post.

[rowdyb]

i've loaded a lot of different 147gr bullets of the fp/tc style profiles at 1.00-1.10 lengths. it's not uncommon. keep doing what you're doing.

[IDescribe]

2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

i've loaded a lot of different 147gr bullets of the fp/tc style profiles at 1.00-1.10 lengths. it's not uncommon. keep doing what you're doing.

 

Rowdy, just to be clear for the new guys, I think you mean 1.10 - 1.11.   Is that correct?  

[rowdyb]

No, not a typo at all. The current load I'm shooting of 3.1 Titegroup, 147gr Berrys flat point is loaded to an oal of 1.080.

 

Anecdotally I've talked with a lot of CZ shooters who with 147gr bullets of a certain profile where their oal starts at 1.0-something.

Edited June 5, 2017 by rowdyb

[WiII]

On 6/4/2017 at 0:00 AM, IDescribe said:

Will, I just found an old post from Smitty79 (but on another forum) saying that he couldn't get the Precision 147 to work in his unmodified CZ, and Smitty knows what he's doing.  It's DEFINITELY still worth your going through the process, but it may be that these are a no-go, unless you want to ream.  I'd recommend you shoot them in another pistol, and buy more appropriate bullets for your CZ. 

ALSO, you mentioned you are new to CZ.  In terms of recoil impulse, I personally prefer 124/125gr or 135gr bullets for my heavier, all-metal pistols.  And I prefer 135gr or 145/147gr bullets for my lighter polymer pistols.  If you learned to like heavier bullets in a lighter polymer pistol, like a Glock or an M&P or any of the other polymers, you might want to try a 124/125gr in your CZ.  The extra weight washes out the snappier recoil impulse.  You won't have insurmountable OAL concerns.  They'll shoot flatter.  And recoil management comes from your grip, shoulders, legs, and feet, not from you bullet choice.    Just a thought.  

And don't forget to post that bullet length.  Still curious.  

 

The precision bullet length is .66. For those curious, I will attach a comparison of a bayou 147 fp to at the 147 precision bullet.

 

I ordered 250 135gr cone shaped projectiles from Blue Bullets and 1k 115gr fmj from my friend(I'm not crazy about 115gr, but I'm getting them for $.043/per projectile). I will compare them to my 147gr loads once I dial in the 115 & 135 to ~130pf. Then I'll shoot them in a 4 stage Tuesday mini match at my club. 

[IDescribe]

Very helpful picture.  It shows too things.  

The first is that with the Bayou, the 'shoulder' is closer to the base of the bullet than on the Precision, meaning the ogive starts sloping away from the bullet's maximum diameter closer to the base than on the Precision.  You can tell just from the picture that between those two bullets at their max OAL, the Precision will have more of its ass stuck down into the case.

The second thing is that you can see a significant bevel on the base of the Bayou.  This means you can get the base of the Bayou a little deeper into the case without engaging case walls where they start to thicken around .300.  Again, somewhere in that neighborhood, the interior diameter of the case starts to shrink, and it's not ideal to have the bullet shank get below that point.  

 

If you look at the pic below of a bisected 9mm case, you can see what I referred to as the "mechanical limit" or "hard deck" adjacent to the arrows.  From the case mouth down to the arrows, the case wall thickness is the same.  Below the arrows, the case walls start to get thicker, and the case interior narrows.  You do not want the base of the bullet to get below that point.  As you can easily picture, the bevel on the Bayou would allow the true base to get a little below that point without issue, but once the full diameter of the bullet -- the shank -- gets below that point, it will start to get squeezed by the case walls, and one of two things must happen -- either the bullet base gets swaged to a smaller diameter, or the case walls will get pushed out.  You are better off if neither of these things happens, so I would suggest you keep the bullet base above that level, which is .300 from the case mouth, except with a beveled base, where you can go a little deeper without problem.

 

NOW, as to your bullet in particular. You said you don't get it to plunk and spin freely until 1.08.  Your bullet is .660 in length.  So .75 + .66 - 1.08 = .330.  Your seating depth at that OAL with that bullet will be .330.  AND that Precision bullet has a flat base, meaning you don't get the leeway of a bevel.  My guess is that that bullet is NOT going to work well in your CZ.  If you want to check it, load one of them to 1.12 and pull the bullet.  Measure the base.  That will give you a baseline for base diameter above the mechanical limit.  Then load another one of them to 1.08, pull that bullet, and measure the base.  Do the bullet bases measure the same?  Has the one that was loaded to 1.08 had it's based swaged down a little to a smaller diameter?  If that's the case, accuracy will suffer.  This could be anything from the occasional frustrating flyer that there's no explanation for, to consistently bad accuracy, to outright tumbling.  NOW, if there's no effect to the bullet base, and the case walls aren't getting bowed out in a way that affects feeding, then load away and have fun.  But if loading to 1.08 swages the base at all, you'd be better off using them in another pistol and looking elsewhere for a good bullet for the CZ.
 

[slavex]

I have lost track of how many 147gr bullets I've put through my 9 Shadows and Shadow 2s over the last 15 years, but it's a lot and they, just like the 124s and 115s are all loaded to 1.11ish, I've loaded plenty to 1.000" too. CZs have shorter chambers than some other guns, simply load for that and you're golden. 

[IDescribe]

1 hour ago, slavex said:

I've loaded plenty to 1.000" too.

 

 

What bullets and why?