Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Sandbaggers


Recommended Posts

Yeah, winning B is not really a thing. Thinking it *is* a thing seems like a good way to stifle the progression of your skills.

 

I just try to get closer to the best guys, and increase my percentage of the overall winner (or division winner at a major).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 77
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Yeah, winning B is not really a thing. Thinking it *is* a thing seems like a good way to stifle the progression of your skills.

 

I just try to get closer to the best guys, and increase my percentage of the overall winner (or division winner at a major).

Maybe to you its not a thing, but thats a measurable way to get better. If your a C class guy or low B, setting your sights on knocking off the top B guys is a good way to go. and then when you get there focus on beating the top A guy. 

I think winning B works fine for me, and when I get a promotion from B to A at some major or classifier then I'll go after winning top A. And so on. At least I get to bring something home with me when I win a class. Whats the point of showing up if I'm not gonna try and win something? I fully understand I'm not competitive with Nils, Max, Vogel, etc... so I have something in the interim that I can be competitive in. If I wanted to go spend the same amount of money and have 'fun' I'd go fly model airplanes or some other waste of time activity.

A guy just starting and trying to go after a GM on his first day is going to get crushed shooting that fast. You already said you dont much care the the classifications so This post was pretty much a waste of my time. Dont get me wrong, trying to win HOA at a match is a good goal i guess, but your gonna make more mistakes pushing yourself to shoot that fast than you would actually shooting at a level where you could win a class. The C class guy isn't going to win HOA, so why cant he focus on winning C or beating all the B guys?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Dutchman195 said:

Maybe to you its not a thing, but thats a measurable way to get better. If your a C class guy or low B, setting your sights on knocking off the top B guys is a good way to go. and then when you get there focus on beating the top A guy. 

I think winning B works fine for me, and when I get a promotion from B to A at some major or classifier then I'll go after winning top A. And so on. At least I get to bring something home with me when I win a class. Whats the point of showing up if I'm not gonna try and win something? I fully understand I'm not competitive with Nils, Max, Vogel, etc... so I have something in the interim that I can be competitive in. If I wanted to go spend the same amount of money and have 'fun' I'd go fly model airplanes or some other waste of time activity.

A guy just starting and trying to go after a GM on his first day is going to get crushed shooting that fast. You already said you dont much care the the classifications so This post was pretty much a waste of my time. Dont get me wrong, trying to win HOA at a match is a good goal i guess, but your gonna make more mistakes pushing yourself to shoot that fast than you would actually shooting at a level where you could win a class. The C class guy isn't going to win HOA, so why cant he focus on winning C or beating all the B guys?

 

wut? who said anything about trying to 'go after a GM'? If you think people who don't care about classes aren't competitive, or are only shooting for fun, you have totally misunderstood my post, and probably also the whole point of competition in general.

 

I don't focus on 'winning' anything. I can't control whether I 'win'. That depends very much on who else shows up and how they do and what weird things happen to them. What I can control is how *I* shoot, and whether I improve or not. Beating a guy who used to be better than you is one way of measuring that, but I personally find it much more useful to focus on my percentage of the top shooters. Of course I'm not going to shoot as fast as an open GM, but the guys that win matches tend to be pretty consistent, so if last year I was shooting 70%, and this year I'm shooting 80%, then that means I am getting better, and it reinforces my desire to practice and focus and improve. It is also useful to focus on the individuals that consistently beat you by a little, and try to improve to where you are beating them, not by *trying* to shoot as fast as them, but by practicing until you *do* shoot as fast as them (and more accurately). I don't "try to win", i just practice and improve and shoot consistently. By doing that, I am confident that the results will be there.

 

I understand that for many people, its important to pretend they 'win' when they beat some other people that also haven't trained enough to be at a higher classification. That is why we have self-esteem awards. I throw them away, but if they motivate you to practice, then that's kewl.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 7:17 PM, Flatland Shooter said:

Then there are the reverse sandbaggers.  Those idiots that shoot classifiers better than field courses and then get stuck in a class well above their skills.  

 

Hey, I resemble that remark. While it's only been a couple matches, I've found myself shooting the classifier stages better for some reason to the point that I'd be rated a C yet every other stage I have shot I am a solid middle D so far.

 

Several have mentioned getting rid of the classifications. That is a very poor idea IMHO and here is why. Being a new shooter I want to feel like I have a chance at some "glory" on a really good day. That means beating the others who are at my level. When I look at the matches I've shot I can look and see how I've done against others in my skill level and I can make a simple goal of just beating those few people by the end of the summer. If I happen to shoot better than someone in a different level above me on a given day, then it is even better for my mindset to want to continue. If you really want new people to keep showing up and learning and joining you then you need to provide a hook and give them a reason to. By lumping everyone in together you provide almost no motivation to even want to get better because you may realize that you will NEVER be as good as the top guy on any given weekend. It is a disincentive to trying harder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mikeinctown said:

 

Several have mentioned getting rid of the classifications. That is a very poor idea IMHO and here is why. Being a new shooter I want to feel like I have a chance at some "glory" on a really good day. That means beating the others who are at my level. When I look at the matches I've shot I can look and see how I've done against others in my skill level and I can make a simple goal of just beating those few people by the end of the summer. If I happen to shoot better than someone in a different level above me on a given day, then it is even better for my mindset to want to continue. If you really want new people to keep showing up and learning and joining you then you need to provide a hook and give them a reason to. By lumping everyone in together you provide almost no motivation to even want to get better because you may realize that you will NEVER be as good as the top guy on any given weekend. It is a disincentive to trying harder.

 

 

I think that depends on how you look at it. many people seem focused on beating other people as their motivating factor. That's cool, and I understand it, but I personally have better results by just trying to improve... period. Looking at my percentage of the overall match winner tends to be much more consistent, at least here where we have several Gm's and M's shooting. Whoever comes out on top is likely to have had a consistently good match, whereas if you beat joe schmoe in C class (especially in a smaller division), you don't always know if it's because his gun broke, or he was hungover, or you shot great, or what. If i was shooting 60% of the overall winner (a national class open shooter) last year, and I'm shooting 70% this year, it's clear I am getting better, and that motivates me. I also find that class/division results come for free if I just get better without worrying about them, and without worrying about other people.  Bottom line tho is whatever motivates you to practice and improve is a good thing. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/16/2017 at 6:27 PM, rowdyb said:

I like trophies.

 

Lol, I just throw most of them away now. Some last a few months, some go in the trash as soon as i get home. i only ever saved one that was related to class, and that was just as a joke (because it was L10). But everyone has different motivations. Yours are not wrong.

Edited by motosapiens
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/16/2017 at 1:52 PM, mikeinctown said:

 

Hey, I resemble that remark. While it's only been a couple matches, I've found myself shooting the classifier stages better for some reason to the point that I'd be rated a C yet every other stage I have shot I am a solid middle D so far.

 

There's a big difference IMHO, in someone who has reached a higher level on proficiency with respect to skills often tested in a classifier, such as draws, reloads, etc. (opposed to field courses whereby your draw, for example, doesn't have as much impact) and someone who is shooting a classifier to "hero it" and as such, artificially increases their classification to a point where they then fall woefully short in actual matches of their designated skill level.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The trophy isn't my motivation. I just like them. My motivation is to perfect my skills well enough I can show up at any match, with any kind of stage and beat most the people there. That's my motivation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

The trophy isn't my motivation. I just like them. My motivation is to perfect my skills well enough I can show up at any match, with any kind of stage and beat most the people there. That's my motivation.

Reasonable, and not too uncommon, but consider that is still defining your success in terms of things that are beyond your control, like who shows up. I'm sure you have won matches where there was no serious competition, and I'm sure you have also shot extremely well in highly-competitive matches and not won, but perhaps shot your best ever percentage of a national champion's score. Which is more satisfying? Which is more indicative of the level of your skills?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/31/2017 at 3:47 PM, jchris4769 said:

 

So, what are you sandbaggers out there trying to accomplish? Do you feel like a winner when you are 1st in a class that you know you don't belong in?

 

I've told many that it reminds me of a Southpark episode where Cartman joins the "special olympics".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, StratRider said:

I've told many that it reminds me of a Southpark episode where Cartman joins the "special olympics".

 

But doesn't he finish dead last in every event :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...

I'm new to this sport but I don't see the point of "sandbagging." Each to their own of course. I try and go all out no matter if the stage is a classifier or not. Belief me I am very competitive but like having fun with this sport too. I have a few local friends that are GMs and Ms and I always compare myself to their scores. I like winning B class but don't really care much about that. May be that will change as I attend larger matches and get trophies but I doubt it. I like to keep myself humble and teachable by comparing my performance to much better shooters. So on a positive side the class win is fine but I'm gunning to one day smoke my friends. 

 

Bottom line....go BALLS out and try your best on whatever course of fire!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

I guess that means you'll very soon be an A  ...    ;)

 

Thanks for optimism and confidence. :lol: I don't win B class all the time but when I do I still compare myself to my friends who blow me away each and every match. I try and squad up with them to watch what they etc. That may not work for others but I really enjoy getting completely owned by my friends because it drives me to do better. They are nice about it most of time <_<. I just go out and try to push it slightly more each match. I have some REALLY good friends/shooters locally that I know that have me under their wings. So I don't have any excuses to not move up to A in 2018.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funny that i came across this post.  At our match yesterday, we had a classifier stage.  I was talking to one of the shooters who said It's funny when all these guys kick my butt on all the stages, but I beat them on the classifier stage. I blew it off as small talk, but now that I think about it and look at the classifier scores from yesterday, he has merit.  Here's the top 40 scores from our classifier yesterday.  it was CM99-28.  I'm currently ranked C in PCC because i only have 4 classifiers.  I've been shooting PCC for about 2 months after my one year mandatory shooting vacation.  The names were changed to protect the innocent.  I finished 9th and quite frankly it should have been better.  I had a small hiccup where I looked down down a split second thinking my mag fell out

Place
Name Class Division Points Pen. Time Hit Factor Stage Pts Stage %
1 XXX B PCC 56 0 6.51 8.6022 60 100.00 %
2 XXX B CO 54 0 6.64 8.1325 56.7239 94.54 %
3 XXX M LTD 58 0 7.17 8.0893 56.4225 94.04 %
4 XXX C CO 58 0 7.35 7.8912 55.0408 91.73 %
5 XXX A CO 56 0 7.27 7.7029 53.7274 89.55 %
6 XXX U LTD 54 0 7.41 7.2874 50.8293 84.72 %
7 XXX A OPEN 57 0 7.86 7.2519 50.5817 84.30 %
8 XXX M LTD 57 0 8.16 6.9853 48.7222 81.20 %
9 Stick C PCC 52 0 7.5 6.9333 48.3595 80.60 %
10 XXX U PROD 52 0 7.51 6.9241 48.2953 80.49 %
11 XXX U CO 54 0 8.23 6.5614 45.7655 76.28 %
12 XXX U PCC 58 0 9.1 6.3736 44.4556 74.09 %
13 XXX C LTD 54 0 8.56 6.3084 44.0008 73.33 %
14 XXX C PCC 58 0 9.29 6.2433 43.5468 72.58 %
15 XXX C PROD 58 0 9.44 6.1441 42.8549 71.42 %
16 XXX C PROD 56 0 9.23 6.0672 42.3185 70.53 %
17 XXX C OPEN 59 0 9.75 6.0513 42.2076 70.35 %
18 XXX C LTD 59 0 9.79 6.0266 42.0353 70.06 %
19 XXX C PCC 56 0 9.32 6.0086 41.9097 69.85 %
20 XXX C L10 57 0 9.78 5.8282 40.6515 67.75 %
21 XXX U PCC 54 0 9.28 5.819 40.5873 67.65 %
22 XXX C LTD 56 0 9.71 5.7673 40.2267 67.04 %
23 XXX U LTD 60 0 10.53 5.698 39.7433 66.24 %
24 XXX B LTD 57 0 10.08 5.6548 39.442 65.74 %
25 XXX C PCC 54 0 9.57 5.6426 39.3569 65.59 %
26 XXX A LTD 58 0 10.36 5.5985 39.0493 65.08 %
27 XXX B LTD 57 0 10.19 5.5937 39.0158 65.03 %
28 XXX C LTD 50 0 9.02 5.5432 38.6636 64.44 %
29 XXX U PROD 56 0 10.13 5.5281 38.5583 64.26 %
30 XXX B PCC 52 0 9.43 5.5143 38.462 64.10 %
31 XXX D LTD 54 0 9.81 5.5046 38.3944 63.99 %
32 XXX U PCC 58 0 10.59 5.4769 38.2012 63.67 %
33 XXX B PROD 60 0 10.96 5.4745 38.1844 63.64 %
34 XXX U PROD 56 0 10.58 5.293 36.9185 61.53 %
35 XXX B LTD 56 0 10.76 5.2045 36.3012 60.50 %
36 XXX C LTD 53 10 8.44 5.0948 35.536 59.23 %
37 XXX D PROD 47 10 7.28 5.0824 35.4495 59.08 %
38 XXX B PCC 60 0 12.14 4.9423 34.4723 57.45 %

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/5/2017 at 3:33 PM, Boudreaux78 said:

Secondly, classifiers test a specific set of skills that are not necessarily directly related to a field course. A person with a slow draw or a weak reload can find many other places in a field course to make up valuable time and perform better than their classified counterparts. 

 

If you can stand and shoot well but are not fast (typical old fart) then you will classify 1 level above what you can do on field courses.

 

If you can move fast but need to work on accuracy then you will classify 1 level below what you can do on field courses.

 

I have never needed to shoot one handed on a USPSA field course. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If you can stand and shoot well but are not fast (typical old fart) then you will classify 1 level above what you can do on field courses.

 

I AM The Original Old Fart ex-bullseye shooter     :ph34r:

 

And I do better on field courses than I do on classifiers, which demand lots of speed.    :wacko:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

I AM The Original Old Fart ex-bullseye shooter     :ph34r:

 

And I do better on field courses than I do on classifiers, which demand lots of speed.    :wacko:

 

I never said that there were not any sandbagger old farts :) 

 

Could just be me, C class feet and I am hoping I can stay out of A class this year, will not deliberately sandbag. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I never said that there were not any sandbagger old farts :) 

 

I've NEVER been a sandbagger - always go for My Personal Best.

 

BUT, for some reasons I am usually slower on classifiers than on field courses,

and I'm pretty slow on field courses.    :wacko:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/16/2017 at 2:51 PM, motosapiens said:

 

 

I think that depends on how you look at it. ... If i was shooting 60% of the overall winner (a national class open shooter) last year, and I'm shooting 70% this year, it's clear I am getting better, and that motivates me....

 

That is about how i am looking at it as a new competitor. I shot 39% at Area2 (first ever non level 1 match) and 41% at Area 1 the same month. Worked on some stuff and shot 53% (303A, 32B, 58C, 15D, 2M) with 92% of points at Nationals six months later. I realized that I was also very slow in movement and transitions, so started working on that heavily. This year the goal is to shoot over 60% at Level II and above matches. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If you can stand and shoot well but are not fast (typical old fart) then you will classify 1 level above what you can do on field courses.

 

 

Not always.  I'm a solid "C" shooter that stumbled into an "M" card.   In a field course I make the typical old fart look good.


 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...