Decocking a Shadow for production

[AussieTactical]

So I am leaning toward a CZ Shadow 2 for IPSC production class, but I also need to buy a first handgun for my 12 year old son who wants to compete with me. I was planning to get us two identical handguns, but then I realised for production class at least, he is going to have to decock the CZ for his first shot each time. This seems like an AD waiting to happen. So not I am thinking he either needs to shoot in a class that allows him to start cocked and locked, or select a DA only hand gun. Or is there a third option that I am missing that would let him shoot a DA/SA CZ in production safely?

[Rnlinebacker]

Cz p10c. You'd be the most wonderful dad in the world

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[SmCaudata]

You can get a decocker version and fix it up nice.

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[chrisstophere]

Lowering a race hammer with your thumb is much easier and easier than those stock, round hammers. Get him a proper Shadow and replace the hammer and then spend an evening going thru the motion is my vote.

[bsand]

There's a method called thumbroll on YouTube with a shadow.

You place thumb nail out, against hammer pull trigger and roll thumb out.

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[shoots100]

58 minutes ago, AussieTactical said:

So I am leaning toward a CZ Shadow 2 for IPSC production class, but I also need to buy a first handgun for my 12 year old son who wants to compete with me. I was planning to get us two identical handguns, but then I realised for production class at least, he is going to have to decock the CZ for his first shot each time. This seems like an AD waiting to happen. So not I am thinking he either needs to shoot in a class that allows him to start cocked and locked, or select a DA only hand gun. Or is there a third option that I am missing that would let him shoot a DA/SA CZ in production safely?

I had the same concerns as you, so I ended up buying a P09. I liked it so much, I bought a spare.

If you don't like the decocker, you can swap it to a manual safety in five minutes with the supplied parts that come with the pistol.

Add a couple of upgrades from CGW and you won't be disappointed.

Half the weight of the Shadows too.

 

[AussieTactical]

Thanks all for the suggestions. I will go start doing some more research.

[dansedgli]

Buy 2 9mm 1911s and shoot in classic division instead. Better guns.

 

 

[adamge]

23 minutes ago, dansedgli said:

Buy 2 9mm 1911s and shoot in classic division instead. Better guns.

 

 

Agree to disagree.

[dansedgli]

Fixed sights, revolver like double action, spongey single action, poor accuracy.  

 

Maybe my 3rd shadow will be better? 

 

Agree to disagree indeed. 

 

 

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

I have been at only one match where this AD happened. Have been at 2 where the shooter dropped the hammer on a live round after finishing the course of fire, and 3 where the shooter neglected to put the safety on before holstering a loaded and cocked 1911/2011 style gun, one of these guys was either an M or a GM.

 

If I were you I would be a lot more concerned about teaching him to watch the 180 & keep finger out of trigger guard & etc etc. Lowering the hammer is a practiced skill that your son will need to be able to perform when he is nervous, but there is no time limit and it is a lot easier to learn than safe gun handling during a course of fire. 

 

I'd get the gun you want and not worry about it. Before trying it with a hot gun you might ask him to demonstrate 100 times in a row with an empty gun, or whatever it takes until you are both completely bored and very comfortable with the process.

 

Just my opinion, but I think he is more likely to forget to put the safety on with a locked and cocked style gun than to let the hammer fall if he has practiced good technique. Letting the hammer fall with the gun pointed safely down range is only an embarrassment. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by IHAVEGAS

[SmCaudata]

I don't think it's embarrassment he's worried about. At least that's not what I worry aboyt. I'd imagine that slipping off the hammer while decocking could potentially cause a bad hand injury.

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[IHAVEGAS]

39 minutes ago, SmCaudata said:

I don't think it's embarrassment he's worried about. At least that's not what I worry aboyt. I'd imagine that slipping off the hammer while decocking could potentially cause a bad hand injury.

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Hmm. Anybody know if that type of injury has ever happened ?

 

I'm guessing the concern is that the slide would contact the weak hand on recoil.

 

Have seen what happens when the slide gets a really solid bite on the strong hand thumb. Not serious, but it looked like it hurt.

 

 

[jarvis243]

I think I would get whatever feels the best in his hand and then start training from there. I was able to learn to drop the hammer at that age on guns and I was worried at times but always had it pointing in a safe direction. The thumbroll technique is super easy and it works.

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[Kraj]

33 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Hmm. Anybody know if that type of injury has ever happened ?

 

I'm guessing the concern is that the slide would contact the weak hand on recoil.

 

Have seen what happens when the slide gets a really solid bite on the strong hand thumb. Not serious, but it looked like it hurt.

 

 

When there was a discussion on if half cocked was hammer down I intentionally dropped my hammer from half on a live round to see it it would light it off. It did.  I had a blood blister on my finger for about a week. Embarrassing, but not that bad. 

 

When I first started I watched people drop hammers om Beretta s and I remember commenting about how that would make me nervous. 

I've shot a stock 3 for a year and a half and once you do it in dry fire a handful of times it's not a big deal

Edited May 8, 2017 by Kraj

[SmCaudata]

When there was a discussion on if half cocked was hammer down I intentionally dropped my hammer from half on a live round to see it it would light it off. It did.  I had a blood blister on my finger for about a week. Embarrassing, but not that bad. 
 
When I first started I watched people drop hammers om Beretta s and I remember commenting about how that would make me nervous. 
I've shot a stock 3 for a year and a half and once you do it in dry fire a handful of times it's not a big deal

The more I think about it I guess the risk for injury is somewhat low. With the light hammer spring if you slip out of the half cocked position it might not even fire off whereas if you slip at the full cock position it's very unlikely to hurt your hand. I guess as someone with a one-year-old my risk tolerance is still somewhat low. Also when I was 14 I slipped while cocking a trap throwing machine and it swung around and hit me in the leg. This led to some stitches and a tetanus shot. I guess what I'm saying is kids tend to be much more likely to make mistakes even the most careful.

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[teros135]

This topic seems to come back around from time to time.  Somebody asks if it's "dangerous" to decock a CZ75 during Make Ready and somebody else responds that "I've heard it's risky, better not do it".  CZ is one of the more popular guns in Production, and most of them are manually decocked.  Where are all the reports of ADs in matches?  Where are all the stories of ER visits from decocking CZs?  Come on, folks.  It does take a proper technique, and if you do it properly the hammer is lowered (not "dropped", which is untrue but delightfully dramatic to some) and we move into "Are You Ready".  Pressing the trigger is a whole lot more likely to make the hammer fall than doing a proper hammer lowering. 

 

BTW, there seem to be two basic techniques.  One is to "roll" the hammer down by placing your off-hand forefinger between the hammer and frame and roll the hammer down to the fully decocked position.  The other is to "pinch" the hammer between the off-hand thumb and forefinger and lower it that way.  I've seen many who favor the "roll" method, which keeps your finger between the hammer and frame. 

[IHAVEGAS]

10 minutes ago, Kraj said:

 

I've shot a stock 3 for a year and a half and once you do it in dry fire a handful of times it's not a big deal

 

After lowering the hammer & doing things that way for a couple years, using the thumb safety feels a little shaky. You need to trust that your muscle memory is right to insure that the safety is not coming off to soon. 

 

I think what you are trained to is the big thing. 

[IHAVEGAS]

5 minutes ago, SmCaudata said:

 

 

. Also when I was 14 I slipped while cocking a trap throwing machine and it swung around and hit me in the leg. This led to some stitches and a tetanus shot. I guess what I'm saying is kids tend to be much more likely to make mistakes even the most careful.
 

 

 

 

My sister has a very slight scar on her face from one. Dad said when he saw it happen that was the most scared he has ever been.

[MikeBurgess]

When my son was about the same age I taught him to decock a Tanfoglio for production (using the thumb roll), we practiced a little and it became second nature, no problems at all. The funny thing was going to match where he was going to shoot limited with the same pistol and I told him he could just use the safety, no need to decock and he wouldn't do it, to him the idea of having the hammer back while in his holster freaked him out, safety on or not.

 

[GregJ]

11 hours ago, Rnlinebacker said:

Cz p10c. You'd be the most wonderful dad in the world

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If it were my son, this.  Minimize the number of tasks that are required when starting one out. Safety/decocker manipulation requires attention and fine motor skills, that a young un starting out probably will take some time to get the hang of.  Plus the long first DA trigger pull might be an issue.  Good luck, and enjoy the time shared.

[teros135]

There are a number of juniors in the 11-14 range who shoot Open; one I know made B class last year at 13 (and is a USPSA Range Officer).  I'm not sure young folks can't learn motor skills, if that's what you're worried about. 

[bsand]

The more I think about it I guess the risk for injury is somewhat low. With the light hammer spring if you slip out of the half cocked position it might not even fire off whereas if you slip at the full cock position it's very unlikely to hurt your hand. I guess as someone with a one-year-old my risk tolerance is still somewhat low. Also when I was 14 I slipped while cocking a trap throwing machine and it swung around and hit me in the leg. This led to some stitches and a tetanus shot. I guess what I'm saying is kids tend to be much more likely to make mistakes even the most careful.

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I was testing how careless I could be dropping the hammer (muzzle pointed into the berm). I can slip halfway thru and not light off s round. I was unable to create an ad lol...

Only time I think it would ad if I didn't have a good grip before pulling the trigger and never slowed it down. I have a 13# hammer spring.

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[adamge]

I've had the hammer slip out of my pinch grip while decocking in practice.  The gun fired and the slide action cut my finger somewhat.  It drew blood but wasn't serious.

[GregJ]

14 minutes ago, teros135 said:

There are a number of juniors in the 11-14 range who shoot Open; one I know made B class last year at 13 (and is a USPSA Range Officer).  I'm not sure young folks can't learn motor skills, if that's what you're worried about. 

 

No, that is not what I am inferring.  I too have shot with several juniors in that age bracket, and they shot very well, but I doubt an Open gun was the first pistol they ever shot.  I am saying start them out on something simple that they can focus on other skills while being safe, and having fun. When their skills and comfort level grow, then introduce them to something else.  When you start driving, you dont start out on a F1, at least most dont.  All kids are different, and the OP's may not have any problem with it.   Try both and see what they are more comfortable starting out with.  The key is for them to be safe and have fun.