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9mm Trojan jams???


Southpaw

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I'm having a problem with my 9mm Trojan where every time I do a slide lock reload, when I hit the slide stop the gun jams and doesn't chamber a round.  The slide will move forward enough to just hit the top round in the mag, but doesn't strip it from the mag.  When this happens if I then lock the slide back and try stripping the mag from the gun I can't pull the mag out.  The top round in the mag barely moved forward from when I released the slide, it's not touching the feed ramp yet, but if I reach into the ejection port I also can't get that top round to move at all in the mag.  The only way I found to clear this jam is to pull the slide back and then ram the slide forward into the top round.  After a few wacks it'll eventually come free and chamber that round.  I'm using Dawson/Metalform mags.  Has anyone had an issue like this and know how to fix it?

 

I had this happen once over a year ago and thought it was a fluke.  Then it happened a few months ago twice in the same match so I sent it to STI.  They told me the issue was my magazine and that the Metalform mag I sent in with the gun had spread feedlips and also a very tiny crack in a feedlip.  So they didn't do anything to the gun and just gave me a new magazine.  Well I shot it today for the first time after getting it back and had the exact same thing happen 3 times with 3 different mags.  STI already looked over the gun and said they didn't see anything wrong with it, so I'm not sure what to tell them if I send it to them again.

 

I tried re-creating the jam at home and sort of was able to, but this one cleared much easier and didn't require ramming the slide into the top round to clear it.  Here's a picture:

 

CGbvD8f.jpg

Edited by Southpaw
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Over inserting magazines while the slide is back. Basically slide is back, mag goes up too high into the frame with a vigorous reload, slide going forward hits mag lips, etc.

 

Need to take a look at the height of the mag release as well as the height of the ejector, searching "over insertion 1911" should bring up the common troubleshooting steps with pictures.

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10 hours ago, JimmyBob said:

Over inserting magazines while the slide is back. Basically slide is back, mag goes up too high into the frame with a vigorous reload, slide going forward hits mag lips, etc.

 

Need to take a look at the height of the mag release as well as the height of the ejector, searching "over insertion 1911" should bring up the common troubleshooting steps with pictures.

Thanks, this was my initial thought.  I did a search and everything that came up was for either a 2011 or 1911 with the Dawson no-gap base pads.  I'm using the regular, non no-gap base pads on mine.  Do you have any links or suggestions on what I can do to fix this?

 

I initially thought this was the issue as when I would do a slide lock reload I'd press the slide stop while my off hand was just finishing inserting the mag and possibly still applying upward pressure on it.  I thought maybe the mag was then pushed all the way up into the frame and also when trying to re-create the jam at home the only way I could do it was by pressing up on the base pad while pressing the slide stop.  So yesterday during the match I made a conscious effort to take my hand off the base pad before pressing the slide stop (and a friend confirmed I did this).  So the mag should have dropped down slightly to it's normal resting spot before the slide stop was pressed; so I'm confused about that.  At home when I try slamming a mag in it always drops down to this spot like in the picture below, it doesn't get stuck up with the base pad touching the bottom of the frame.

 

I'd think these base pads should prevent over insertion, right?  Also I know the mag isn't hitting the ejector.  I've already had to replace a broken ejector once from this and the new one is relieved enough that the mag doesn't touch it even when pressed all the way up to where the base pad contacts the bottom of the frame.

 

I believe there are mag releases that hold the mag at a different height, but when I'm actually shooting it, it feeds well as is so I'm not sure if that would get affected by a different mag release?

 

sPbPzpO.jpg

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8 hours ago, dansedgli said:

When my lawman starts doing that I replace the recoil spring with a fresh one. Easy way to lose a stage.

 

Yes I've lost quite a few stages now from this :(.  I'll try that, did you stick with a 10lb spring?  This gun only has about 3k rounds through it so far though.  And when it locks up like this no heavier recoil spring will feed that top round.  I have to ram the slide into that top round as hard as I can usually about 3-5 times to get it to strip from the mag.

 

4 hours ago, TK66 said:

Does it do it if you pull the slide all the way back to release the slide lock? 

 

I'm not sure, I was thinking I could try that.  I can't always get it to re-create this jam at home and as I said above I can only do it while also pressing up on the base pad at home.  I can try this during a match, but if I have to always pull back the slide on slide lock reloads instead of using the slide stop that would suck...

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Without seeing the gun, mine was a little finicky when new. Check extractor. if it's to tight won't chamber, to loose won't extract. I throated the barrel

quite a bit to get mine to run. It's had enough rounds put through it that I replaced the barrel a couple years beck. That barrel also had to be throated.

Loading your on ammo? Mine like's an OAL around 1.150 to short stovepipes. If your not using a Lee sizing die try one. It sizes closer to the extractor groove

and tighter than other brands. Seen several STI guns start running that didn't run by going to a Lee' sizing die. Don't care want the box says lube cases.

Your working the brass pretty good with a Lee sizing die. I shoot bullets from 115gn up to 165gn with no issues now. Gun has run 100 percent after doing the

above and has well over 30,000 round through it.

 

Metal form is a good magazine and doubt that's a problem

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Have you tried different manufacture magazines? I had problems with the Metal Forms. Switched to Tripp and runs flawlessly. Friend of mine has a Springfield 9mm. Would jam occasionally. He used my Tripp mags with no issues.

Edited by CHARLES D
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2 hours ago, Bob DuBois said:

Without seeing the gun, mine was a little finicky when new. Check extractor. if it's to tight won't chamber, to loose won't extract. I throated the barrel

quite a bit to get mine to run. It's had enough rounds put through it that I replaced the barrel a couple years beck. That barrel also had to be throated.

Loading your on ammo? Mine like's an OAL around 1.150 to short stovepipes. If your not using a Lee sizing die try one. It sizes closer to the extractor groove

and tighter than other brands. Seen several STI guns start running that didn't run by going to a Lee' sizing die. Don't care want the box says lube cases.

Your working the brass pretty good with a Lee sizing die. I shoot bullets from 115gn up to 165gn with no issues now. Gun has run 100 percent after doing the

above and has well over 30,000 round through it.

 

Metal form is a good magazine and doubt that's a problem

 

It works pretty much 100% while actually shooting, no other malfunctions.  Just this issue with slide lock reloads.  I already use a Lee U die.

 

52 minutes ago, CHARLES D said:

Have you tried different manufacture magazines? I had problems with the Metal Forms. Switched to Tripp and runs flawlessly. Friend of mine has a Springfield 9mm. Would jam occasionally. He used my Tripp mags with no issues.

 

I used to have a few of the Tripp mags, but actually sold those and got more of the Dawson since they seemed to work better, that was before this issue started though.  I do have two Wilson mags still, haven't tried those yet.  Although the newer Wilson mags look pretty much the same as the Metalform mags.

Edited by Southpaw
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I have found this same slide lock issue on my Trojan and Dan Wesson. I have Tripp, Dawson, Wilson(plastic & metal followers) and Metalform (rib in front & rear spacer). All run 100% in both guns regardless of bullet weight, handload, factory or OAL. I have about 5 of each mag brand/type.

 

I tried; heavier recoil springs, more clearance on the ejector, leave mags loaded, change oal, bullet weight, etc.

 

What I found; when I slam a mag home at speed, the mag stops on the mag catch, clear of the ejector. The rounds in the magazine continue to move up, spreading the feed lips. This results in a round that won't feed from slide lock and a spread mag that will not extract from the grip frame without significant force. Sometimes, I can strike the rear of the slide and the round will feed, other times multiple "slingshots" will work. I can always take a dowel and tap the top round down into the mag and then the mag will feed or drop free of the gun.

 

Right now, I'm shooting single stack in 45acp. More times than not, seating a mag causes the slide to close, a round to strip and I'm on my way! Glock, M&P, polymer gun behavior, not heavy steel 1911 behavior! As I type this, I realize that there was a match a couple of years ago where I over inserted an AR mag. I could not understand how it happened at the time.

 

If I consciously reload with less force, I have no problem at all with the Trojan or DW. I was thinking of trying 38super mags as the feed lips should have more strength in the rear. Then I realized, retraining must occur... I need to retrain myself to not seat the mags so forcefully. Once I finish next week's local 1911 match, I'm going back to the squirt guns and plan to retrain my muscle memory toward a more reasonable amount of force on the reload.

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2 hours ago, RGinIdaho said:

What I found; when I slam a mag home at speed, the mag stops on the mag catch, clear of the ejector. The rounds in the magazine continue to move up, spreading the feed lips. This results in a round that won't feed from slide lock and a spread mag that will not extract from the grip frame without significant force. Sometimes, I can strike the rear of the slide and the round will feed, other times multiple "slingshots" will work. I can always take a dowel and tap the top round down into the mag and then the mag will feed or drop free of the gun.

 

Yes, this is exactly what's happening with mine!  But there must be some solution besides being careful to seat the mag softly?  I don't think I slam mags in any harder than anyone else and others don't seem to be having the same problems.  So I hope there's a solution besides having really slow slide lock reloads where I have to be careful to gingerly insert the mag or else my gun will lock up?!

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11 minutes ago, Oldminger said:

Have you tried your mags in a different gun. If it does the same then Sounds like the mags needs tuning. 

 

How do I tune the mags and reshape the feedlips?  Is there a tool available for this?  I've tried searching, but haven't found anything.

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Intentional testing with both guns, all mags in both guns, multiple attempts per mag, el prez each time, all fail to feed the first round if reloaded as usual.

Some will work if downloaded to as few as 6 rounds. All seem to work if I slow down and think about the reload and the force used.

 

I have 28mags, all brands but the McCormick, I can't believe all 28 have feed lip problems. But maybe... Guns run 100% other than the slide lock reload issue. If I seat with slide closed, USPSA, no issues at all.

 

I haven't tried cutting any of the springs, hate to alter something until I'm confident this is the issue. The mags feed to well otherwise.

 

I know I slam them home smartly, I've broken two Wilson 47d base pads over the last five years. At the time, the first thought that came to mind was, these are very old mags, the plastic must have dried and weakened. Starting to think differently now.

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I have two 9mm Trojans and have given up on them reliably loading from slide lock in a match.

If I ever go to slide lock in a match I just automatically look down at the slide after I release it if it's not in battery I give it a sharp tap on the rear to drive it into battery.

If I've gone to slide lock in a USPSA match I've probably already screwed something up anyway so I just deal with it like that.

One thing that I have found helps a little is to make sure my strong hand thumb isn't dragging on the slide after I hit the release with my weak hand. I suspect that little bit of drag might be causing a problem.

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Weird.  My Trojan has been 100% on Dawson mags and the Brownells black coated mags, both of which are Metalforms with the spacer I believe.

 

It didn't like the Wilson ETM/Vickers mags at all and one other it refused to run on, Tripp I think (can't remember), mine just seems to demand the metalform design.

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Photo on top looks like over insertion.

Mine are set up like my limited guns to not lock back.

stops all the problems with slide lock reloads etc.

But

You have to stay aware on round count

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The way the last 9mm round or two sits in a SS mag is very flat and is under a lot of tension.  Ever tried to unload with your thumb a fully loaded 9mm mag it's difficult, they even make a special tool to strip the rounds out. So this is what your slide is trying to deal with when loading from the slide lock position. When you have 7 rounds or less in the mag the round is under less tension and presents itself nose up a little more making it easier for the slide to strip the round off.

i assume if you release the slide by hand with the slide fully reward it will strip a round off a fully loaded mag ok? 

So the issue is the slide does not have sufficient energy from the slide lock position to overcome the forces on that first first round to chamber it. So now you have to increase the energy of the slide and reduce the forces placed on the first round and the angle it presents to the feed ramp. Here are a few things to check. Try running the heaviest recoil spring you can to eject the case reliably. If you are running super light loads then this will be an issue. If so try running so factory 9mm through the gun with the correct recoil spring for those loads and see if you still have the same problem. How long are you loading your ammo? I assume you are reloading. Try longer loads OAL 1.15 and see if that helps. If none of this works Then you can try to reduce the friction on the round as it sits in the mag. Try polishing the inside of the mag and the feed lips. You can try and adjust the lips so that the round sits a little more nose up but be careful here as you can ruin a mag by doing that. I suggest you buy a Single Dawson mag and try it they usually work straight out the box. If none of this works then send it to a gunsmith.

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I do not think it's an issue with the recoil spring not being strong enough or mag spring being too strong. If I slowly inset a fully loaded mag and press the slide stop it will chamber fine every time. I think it's as RGinIdaho said where inserting the mag quickly with more force at match speed causes the top round to move in the mag, spreading the feed lips and making the mag get stuck in the gun. At that point even a 20lb recoil spring wouldn't be able to strip that top round out.

 

I don't think it's over insertion either since the base pad prevents this.

 

So I think I know what the problem is, I just don't know how to fix it! Inserting mags super slow and carefully during a match I don't think should be the only answer. That would mean the gun doesn't really work as it should be designed to.

 

I do think the more the mags get used and more the feed lips spread helps cause this issue. I never had this happen when the gun was new using new mags. But I don't know how to properly reshape the feed lips myself without risking messing that up and destroying a mag?

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what is stopping the forward motion? it looks like the round is jamming up on the magazine, not nose-diving into the feed-ramp. If that is the case, what bullet shape? I have occasionally had FP bullets give trouble, but not RN. I tend to load as long as I can with 9mm (1.14 for fp 1.16 for RN), and using dawson mags my sti uspsa model is 100% from slide-lock, at least for me. My wife can figure out ways to make it choke.

 

if it's just sticking in the feed lips, then i would at least try squishing the feedlips in a bit. does it happen with every mag? or only some?

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Yeah the top round is getting locked into the feedlips; it's not far forward enough to even contact the feedramp. So bullet shape doesn't matter as the bullet isn't touching anything. I mostly use round nose, but have also used flat point and had the same thing happen.

 

And yes it happens with every mag, but never used to happen when gun and mags were newer, which is why I'm thinking the feed lips spreading over time helps contribute to this. I may try adjusting the feed lips, but just sticking the mag in a vice doesn't seem like the most precise way to tune it ;).

 

On your more well used mags that still work well what's the measurement for feed lip width? I emailed Dawson today about this and they said feed lips should be 0.325-0.335". My older ones are all over this, about .345". It's just weird because these mags really aren't all that well used, I don't shoot SS that much. So if these mags need to be frequently tuned/reshaped to continue working I'd think someone would make a tool or something to do this.

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always use ROUND bullets.. and when doing a slide lock reload with a .40 or a 9mm, ... tell yourself, slip them in, like your coasting into the driveway 10 minutes after curfew.

An over insertion "death jam" is UN-recoverable.    I tighten the lips, by removing the spring and follower and use of a small plastic/rubber hammer. Just something you have to keep an eye on... If you find that they require adjustment after every small match or two, Wilson will replace them, and Tripp will tune them up the first time for free. I had to tune/adjust   30-40% of the Dawson mags , before they would even fall out of the gun(s).. pretty sad/bad QC, but they seem to run the best in both my Springer 9mm's. I have 12 Dawson and 3 Tripps.

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