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JupiterAdam

Question on Penalties - Stage 1 at USPSA Florida Section Championship

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After posting here, I posed my question to Troy McManus because I believe that the answer is very important as it has implications across many of USPSA's classifiers which use a reload between freestyle shots and one handed shots (e.g., Six Chickens, Riverdale Standards, El Strong & Weak Pres, Golden Bullet Standards) - all of these classifiers direct that freestyle is shot prior to the reload.  Note that I distinguish these classifiers from the two array/reload classifiers which typically have a statement in the WSB like "You may engage targets in any order and arrays in any order."

 

***********

 

Troy’s response (May 2, 2017 at 11:12:45 AM EDT):
 

Two things to note:

 

The stage was not legal, as it did not fit the rules for a standard exercise, and the correct number of penalties for the scenario you listed is 7, as per D in your answer selections. 

 

Regards,

 

Troy

DNROI

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26 minutes ago, JupiterAdam said:

After posting here, I posed my question to Troy McManus because I believe that the answer is very important as it has implications across many of USPSA's classifiers which use a reload between freestyle shots and one handed shots (e.g., Six Chickens, Riverdale Standards, El Strong & Weak Pres, Golden Bullet Standards) - all of these classifiers direct that freestyle is shot prior to the reload.  Note that I distinguish these classifiers from the two array/reload classifiers which typically have a statement in the WSB like "You may engage targets in any order and arrays in any order."

 

***********

 

Troy’s response (May 2, 2017 at 11:12:45 AM EDT):
 

Two things to note:

 

The stage was not legal, as it did not fit the rules for a standard exercise, and the correct number of penalties for the scenario you listed is 7, as per D in your answer selections. 

 

Regards,

 

Troy

DNROI

lolol! Answered some and totally ignored other aspects of the conversation

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Weak hand can only be used after the reload because of below rule:

 

1.1.5.3 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with 
the strong hand or weak hand unsupported. The specified hand 
must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the 
remainder of the string or stage.

 

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Actually, that rule pertains to specifying strong or weak hand, as in the WSB.  The shooter can use strong and/or weak hand whenever they want during the freestyle portion of the strings without penalty.  The problem with the situation the OP described has more to do with the fact that the shooter went freestyle during the single-hand portion of string 1.

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My point for quoting that rule was to help clear up the confusion about whether the shooter can choose to do strong/weak hand before the reload and freestyle after.  There is a specific rule about when strong/weak hand can be shot during a standard exercise, making the order not up to the shooter.  It's not like some of the classifiers where the shooter gets to choose which array of targets is shot before and after a reload. 

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Don't have an issue with anything before you shoot a lot of folks just went straight to the " illegal" rather than answering the question about what happened and how to allocate any procedural's the crap about getting the stage tossed because the person shot it wrong is in my opinion just that "crap"  there's an old saying " you break it you own it" trying to weasel out of it is just piss weak.

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1 hour ago, JodiH said:

My point for quoting that rule was to help clear up the confusion about whether the shooter can choose to do strong/weak hand before the reload and freestyle after.  There is a specific rule about when strong/weak hand can be shot during a standard exercise, making the order not up to the shooter.  It's not like some of the classifiers where the shooter gets to choose which array of targets is shot before and after a reload. 

 

i'm not entirely sure that is accurate. it's just that if you *specify* which string must be shot weak hand, it has to be when specified.

 

if you create a standard course, and specify 'shoot 1 array freestyle, and the other array weak-hand' i don't see anything in the rules that would prevent a shooter starting weak-hand.... you just can't *make* him start weak-hand. In fact, I have some stages like this planned, from different boxes, where shooters might choose a particular array for weak-hand because they feel it's easier. If there's an interpretation of the rules that forbids that, I should probably find out.

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22 hours ago, George Jones said:

Illegal stage - 1.2.2.1

 

what if instead of a standards exercise, we call it 2 separate 'speed shoots'? and score them as separate stages instead of separate strings?

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15 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

what if instead of a standards exercise, we call it 2 separate 'speed shoots'? and score them as separate stages instead of separate strings?

 

That doesn't eliminate the problem of specifying more than 6 shots single-handed.  Seems it would be easier to just remove one target and leave everything else as-is.

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2 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

That doesn't eliminate the problem of specifying more than 6 shots single-handed.  Seems it would be easier to just remove one target and leave everything else as-is.

 

i can only find a rule that has a 6-shot limit on specified WHO or SHO for medium or long courses (not speed shoots) (1.1.5.4), but perhaps I am doing it wrong.

 

 

Edited by motosapiens

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1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

i can only find a rule that has a 6-shot limit for medium or long courses (1.1.5.4), but perhaps I am doing it wrong.

 

 

 

Assuming you're talking about a Standards stage, if you combine 1.1.5.3 

Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with the strong hand or weak hand unsupported. The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage.

 

with 1.2.2.1

Standard Exercises - Courses of fire consisting of two or more separately timed component strings. Scores, with any penalties deducted, are accumulated on completion of the course of fire to produce the final stage results. Standard Exercises must only be scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. The course of fire for each component string may require a specific shooting position, procedure and/or one or more mandatory reloads. Standard Exercises must not require more than 24 rounds to complete. Component strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified).

 

(emphasis mine on the above), then the inference is that you would have a component string of no more than 12 shots with a mandatory reload.  I don't see anything that would compel you to make the two halves of the string even at 6 rounds, although that's normally how it's done.  With 12 rounds max per string w/ a reload, and the specified hand used exclusively from the point stipulated to the end of the string, the only way you could get 7 shots single-handed would seem to be specifying uneven halves to the string.  You would need to specify only 5 shots required before the reload (freestyle), and 7 after (single-handed).

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2 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

Assuming you're talking about a Standards stage, if you combine 1.1.5.3 

 

 

no, i was talking about speed shoots. which appear to have 8 round limit before a reload.

 

1.2.2.3 Speed Shoot-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. The written stage briefing may specify engaging arrays of targets without violating rule (1.1.5), as long as the competitor is allowed to engage said arrays in any order, and individual target engagement is not specified. No more than eight rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire. Weak/Strong hand may be stipulated after the reload is complete. Stage may be scored either Comstock or Virginia Count. See Rule 9.2.3.2

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I don't see anything that requires Special Courses of Fire to fall under the General Course requirements for Short, Medium, and Long.  So you seem to be correct that Speed Shoots allow up to 8 shots single-handed after a reload.  But, as you said, it would have to be 2 different stages to have one strong hand and one weak hand.  Then you just have to worry about point totals per 1.2.2.3.1 - Level II and higher matches are allowed no more than one of these courses of fire per every five stages. The total points available in these courses of fire shall not exceed 20% of the total points available in any match.

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49 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

if you create a standard course, and specify 'shoot 1 array freestyle, and the other array weak-hand' i don't see anything in the rules that would prevent a shooter starting weak-hand.... you just can't *make* him start weak-hand. In fact, I have some stages like this planned, from different boxes, where shooters might choose a particular array for weak-hand because they feel it's easier. If there's an interpretation of the rules that forbids that, I should probably find out.

If those arrays are in separate strings (where whole string is SHO/WHO) on a standards then you would be fine.  If a single string, with freestyle too, SHO/WHO always has to be after a point (usually reload) until the last shots of the string (1.1.5.3). 

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1 hour ago, terrydoc said:

Don't have an issue with anything before you shoot a lot of folks just went straight to the " illegal" rather than answering the question about what happened and how to allocate any procedural's the crap about getting the stage tossed because the person shot it wrong is in my opinion just that "crap"  there's an old saying " you break it you own it" trying to weasel out of it is just piss weak.

 

The question was adequately and quite accurately answered in the first two responses. LATER, several certified RMs made note the stage was not legal.  The stage should never have been approved, nor should the RM for the match have allowed it to be set up that way.  Pointing out it should have been tossed is fair game.

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20 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

The question was adequately and quite accurately answered in the first two responses. LATER, several certified RMs made note the stage was not legal.  The stage should never have been approved, nor should the RM for the match have allowed it to be set up that way.  Pointing out it should have been tossed is fair game.

" you break it you own it"  applies to stage design also ;)

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5 hours ago, terrydoc said:

Don't have an issue with anything before you shoot a lot of folks just went straight to the " illegal" rather than answering the question about what happened and how to allocate any procedural's the crap about getting the stage tossed because the person shot it wrong is in my opinion just that "crap"  there's an old saying " you break it you own it" trying to weasel out of it is just piss weak.

So -- does "You break it, you own it" only apply to competitors?  Or does it apply to match staff as well?  Odds are they set out to put on a match that complied with the rules -- but "they broke that stage" by adding one too many targets.  I could argue that by your own standards, "they [now] own it" and the attendant consequences.

 

Reputable match officials will yank a stage once they determine they made a mistake in set-up and violated a stage building rule.  It sucks, but that's owning it, on the part of RM and MD.... 

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On 5/1/2017 at 7:32 PM, George Jones said:

Illegal stage - 1.2.2.1

I asked about it and was told since it was a standards stage, it was OK, I referred them to 1.1.5.4, can't have more than 6 shots fired weak hand.

NROI Approved the stages or was supposed since it was a Section Match.

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3 minutes ago, bret said:

I asked about it and was told since it was a standards stage, it was OK, I referred them to 1.1.5.4, can't have more than 6 shots fired weak hand.

NROI Approved the stages or was supposed since it was a Section Match.

 

1.2.2.1 governs Standards stages ... Clearly, whomever you asked hadn't read it.  Can't answer as to who it was that reviewed the stages for NROI.

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1 minute ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

1.2.2.1 governs Standards stages ... Clearly, whomever you asked hadn't read it.  Can't answer as to who it was that reviewed the stages for NROI.

Thanks

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25 minutes ago, dvrdwn72 said:

isn't steel required to be painted after every shooter at a level 2 and higher?

Yes

4.3.1.7  Metal scoring targets must, if hit, be painted after each competitor. An inadvertent failure to paint one or more targets prior to a competitor’s attempt at the course of fire shall not be grounds for a reshoot.

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2 hours ago, dvrdwn72 said:

isn't steel required to be painted after every shooter at a level 2 and higher?

 

The "requirement" to paint steel - usually poppers - after every shooter is most apparent in the rules for popper calibration ... See 4.3.1.5.3.  If you don't paint between shooters you can never prove the shooter DIDN'T hit the popper and deny the calibration request. 

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