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Going faster with PCC

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Fairly new to the PCC game.  Just started shooting it back in February, where the past year I was only shooting Production (C rating) and a lot of IDPA.  I'm trying to figure out how to train to sacrifice accuracy for speed.  Here is my problem in a nutshell, taken from this last weekend's USPSA match Practiscore result for the PCC category.  Top 5 finishers listed, redacted for names and member numbers:

Name
%
Points
Time
% possible
Div
Class
A
B
C
D
M
NPM
NS
1 -XXXX 100 670.9166 110.8 95.85 PCC U 109 3 25 2 1 0 0
2-XXXX 88.89 596.3491 110.72 85.19 PCC C 93 2 35 7 3 0 0
3-XXXX 88.43 593.2599 110.45 84.75 PCC C 89 1 42 7 1 0 1
4-Me 80.71 541.522 147.47 77.36 PCC U 123 11 4 2 0 0 0
5-XXXX 76.96 516.3681 153.95 73.77 PCC U 122 4 13 0 1 0 0

 

As you can see, I'm getting killed in the overall time department, but shooting very accurately.  That accuracy and $.50 will get me a cup of mediocre coffee.  There are a couple of good threads on this first page about transitions that I'm sure I'm slow at, but is there any recommended drills to get my mind off of accuracy and into getting in and out of positions faster with a PCC?  The sad thing is that all three ahead of me bunched up at 110 seconds are all Super Senior category folks and I run faster than they do. 

 

There's a ton of books / vids / classes on getting faster with a pistol, but not much yet for speed with a carbine.  Every rifle training class is for prepping, not gaming.

 

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I'm following this thread as I am in exactly the same boat as you. I'm shooting significantly more accurately, with almost all alphas. But I'm getting killed by Seniors and Super Seniors! 

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Get someone to film you. You think you run faster than them. It feels fast, really fast. But brace yourself: you're going to see video of yourself jogging casually. Strolling moreso than sprinting.

 

Get video of yourself as soon as you can.

 

Newbies take forever to enter and exit, forever to transition to the next target , and they jog but don't know it... that's it. That's where the time goes. Into all the NON trigger pulling stuff.

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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How to move with a PCC:

 

He just won nationals. Study up!

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSu1aXNpFlKbxLs7Pk0U0qQ

 

The main thing I see him doing differently than most is snapping the stock up over his shoulder instantly as he gets ready to exit, and exploding left or right. Most guys take a lumbering step back, whereas he's already gone.

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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Do you see him pausing when he gets into position?  I did not.  He is ready to pull the trigger when he gets there.

 

 

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Why do you have so many B's compared to everyone else? Did you go for head shots some where they didn't?

 

I wouldn't make your plan to figure out how to go faster while giving up  being as accurate. If you want to beat them you need to go the same speed they are and be just as accurate as you are now. Like everyone else said look at transitions and movement.

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It's not running speed, It's efficiency of movement.  Know exactly where the targets are and the order you're going to shoot them that requires the least amount of movement.  A big difference between you the the fast guys is in the number of "C"s.  Learn what is an "acceptable" sight picture.   

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On 3/28/2017 at 7:52 AM, Racinready300ex said:

Why do you have so many B's compared to everyone else? Did you go for head shots some where they didn't?

 

Good point. Are you slowfiring two shots into the head anytime there's a partial target with a noshoot stapled diagonally across the chest?

 

Stop that. Aim at the top corner or far side of the lower A-zone and accept some fast Charlie's while still holding well away from the noshoot.

 

IMG_1963.thumb.JPG.44c8e60bc60e676f359dc4729eecd8a6.JPG

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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Shoot a lot of targets at 7 yards next time you're training. A single wall or barricade. One one side have 2 open targets at 7 yards. On the other side have two partial targets at ten yards.

 

Start in the middle and run back and forth, side to side, shooting each array  over and over again until your mag is empty. Forget the part of your brain and eyes that say "aim here". Just see how quickly you can do it. How fast you can rip off 4 shots on each side, move and transition and be gun up and ready. Over and over.

 

Do this for three or four mags. No doubt you'll be panting and dog tired. Then tape up the targets and do the same thing but aiming a bit.

 

I'm just guessing, but I bet you have an internal clock/metronome that has a "toooo fast!" alarm on lots of shots and target presentations. Retrain yourself by establishing a new library of sights, sounds and feelings of the gun going much much faster. Make it the new normal. Then when you knock it back to 90% you'll still be faster than you were before.

 

Acclimatization through exposure. Get some confidence at what will be your new normal.

Edited by rowdyb

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I'm new at this game also. 

I'm  learning quick that you need A's.

Lots of them. 

Trying to move with the PCC is going to take some mental work. 

Accesing the stages also can be altered compared to pistol. 

Plus I'm a senior ;-)

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On 3/27/2017 at 5:50 PM, MemphisMechanic said:

How to move with a PCC:

 

He just won nationals. Study up!

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSu1aXNpFlKbxLs7Pk0U0qQ

 

The main thing I see him doing differently than most is snapping the stock up over his shoulder instantly as he gets ready to exit, and exploding left or right. Most guys take a lumbering step back, whereas he's already gone.

 

I recently watched a bunch of his videos. His movements are very explosive, and his splits on his PCC rifle are quick!

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Actual trigger pulling speed is certainly part of the equation, but way less than movement and transitions. Like, an order of magnitude less. 

 

Rowdy's drill is a good one. Also try with 3 targets on one side of the barricade, and start behind and to the opposite side so the targets are obscured. On the beep, run there as fast as possible and come into position with the gun already up and on target for where it will appear from behind the wall. Use open targets set fairly close together (~1yd apart) at close range (7-10) to build trigger speed and transitions at the same time. 

 

And as a general statement about shooting with a red dot... as soon as the dot is in the A, get on the trigger. No waiting. 

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I was in this exact same rut for several matches (been shooting USPSA since January).  My HF improved significantly after I changed my perspective on scoring.  

 

This isn't necessarily a shortcoming of only PCC, but you might be more misled into making gross planning errors.  Consider how scoring is calculated for USPSA 

 

Quote

9.2.2.1 A competitor’s score is calculated by adding the highest value stipulated number of hits per target, minus penalties, divided by the total time (recorded to two decimal places) taken by the competitor to complete the course of fire, to arrive at a hit factor. The overall stage results are factored by awarding the competitor with the highest hit factor the maximum points available for the course of fire, with all other competitors ranked relatively below the stage winner.

 

Or basically, points per second.  Think about what that means and let it sink in.  Without going into a ton of specific examples, you're probably taking too long to shoot and not shooting well enough off to make up for how slow it is.  The additional 10 As you're making over the HHF doesn't make up for the additional 40 seconds you took to make them.

 

There are also a ton of freebie time sinks like:

  • Not having the gun aimed and trigger prepped as you get into positions
  • Not reloading during movements
  • Not sprinting and jogging/walking instead
  • Unnecessary movements/positioning
  • Poor stage planning
  • Making up Cs

I always used to think the more experienced shooters were just awful at giving me useful advice but the more I thought about it the more valuable the advice got.  "Shoot fast and don't miss."

Edited by sweatpants

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Looking just at the raw time and hits you've listed out, here would be my immediate takeaway:

 

Appreciate completely the concept of wanting to be more efficient moving between arrays - I think that's a massive part of the game and likely an area worth reviewing for improvement (I know it certainly has been and will continue to be for me)...but the score above tells a bit of a different story in terms of where you might have some immediate room for growth...unless you're literally slow-walking between arrays, I doubt other shooters (who you've ID as older fellas who likely won't have the explosive movements of somebody like Max L.) are knocking off 25% + of your stage times in that particular area.

 

I'd suggest reviewing your time spent actively shooting an array, compared to the other guys on that list - you're hitting more A's, but I'd venture to guess that it's at the expense of too much time - are you making up C's?  are you shooting significantly slower to ensure A's?  Are you going for head-shots in areas where C-C would actually be beneficial in terms of HF?

 

Try setting up a target at 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards, etc.   Try double-tapping the targets (one true sight picture, two pulls of the trigger, tracking the dot throughout, but not letting it settle back to center A zone before ripping the next shot).  See what your hits end up as.  Then do the same exercise at your "match speed" - this might be a more controlled set of shots with multiple sight pictures etc.  Compare your HFs between the different strings.  You can accomplish this exercise at most indoor ranges, and it should give you a better understanding on if you could get away with shooting any individual targets faster...if you have a private range or one where you can practice transitions, I'd suggest the same exercise, but with two targets at each distance...just to see what happens (Sight picture on T1, two trigger pulls while tracking the dot, but no pause between pulls, ride the recoil of the second shot to the next target, repeat).  This will allow you to eliminate or confirm the hypothesis that you're taking too much time to hit your alphas, and as such, dropping your HF on the stage.

 

Just as an example, here is a stage score from this weekend's match:

 

Place Name No. Class Div Points Pen Time Hit Factor Stage Pts Stage %
1 ||||||||||||||||||||||   U PCC  147 0 20.11  7.3098 155.0000 100.00 %
2 Mazzola, Josh   M PCC  130 10 17.87  6.7152 142.3919 91.87 %

 

So the winner on the stage had 17 more points than I did in terms of raw shooting...then I had a -10 for a miss.  So I was actually down 27 points - basically 20% less points than the stage winner...but look at how close the final HF and stage % is (only 8% back)...because I shot just about 2.5 seconds faster on a 20 second stage.  Had I shot a D instead of that Miss, I would have actually won the stage...and the winner had 7 more Alphas than I did in what might look like almost the same amount of time.  It's worth seeing how quickly you can blast out an A-C compared to guaranteeing an A-A.

 

 

 

Edited by GorillaTactical

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Following as well! Good stuff so far.

 

I have been running simulated dry fire stages in my basement with a focus on movement and being ready to fire, as I come into position. Only been able to do indoor range practice for the past month out to 25 yds.

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USPSA, no matter what div you are shooting requires efficiency of movement. Not just moving from position to position but also from target->target. Double taps can be deceiving to a lot of people. As an old timer, I would emphasize the importance of 2 controlled alphas, regardless of target presentation(distance, difficulty, angle, etc.). 

 

I am yet to shoot PCC, and I'm pretty sure there will be quite a learning curve. I do however, believe there will still be carry-over skills and knowledge from my past pistol experience. One of them is to know when to balance points versus speed. Knowing your skill level vs. the stage. When to push it and not risk too much. You will also need to understand how to mentally estimate hit factors as a tool to develop match strategy. 

 

These things can take time to develop and constant training usually speeds things up. It's a fun sport and PCC is a fun division and I look forward to experiencing it myself. Best of luck.

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I am starting to find out that when I look at stages and figure out how I can take more targets from a single position with my pcc vs moving closer to targets with my CO pistol I have higher HF scores. 

I am learning that I can take those shots due to a longer barrel allowing for more accurate shot placement. I also am learning that having 3 points of contact with the gun is giving me a more stable platform. I am still working out the aim over barrel thing on closer targets. 

 

Re-reading this thread for the 4th time I came upon realization.... since all PCC shooters are in minor I can change my mental focus and not be AS concerned with AA hits vs AC hits. I have caught myself taking longer than need at a particular target looking for the holes instead of just calling the shot, let it break and then move on. That pause is costing me TONS of time.

 

 

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On 10/27/2017 at 3:40 PM, 1911builder said:

PCC=shooting on the move 

 

Negative.  Shooting on the move and getting A's with a PCC is much harder than with a pistol

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On 4/3/2017 at 12:15 PM, Rub'n said:

I'm new at this game also. 

I'm  learning quick that you need A's.

Lots of them.

Allow me to counter with these scores from a recent match which I found very interesting. 

With 40 fewer A's, the B class shooter was 11.5 seconds faster and ended with the higher HF.

Class

PF

A

B

C

D

M

NS

Proc

AP

 Time

 Hit Factor

B

Major

58

0

43

10

1

0

0

 

81.68

5.7786

M

Major

98

0

12

1

1

0

0

 

92.20

5.7484

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4 hours ago, StratRider said:

Allow me to counter with these scores from a recent match which I found very interesting. 

With 40 fewer A's, the B class shooter was 11.5 seconds faster and ended with the higher HF.

Class

 

PF

 

A

 

B

 

C

 

D

 

M

 

NS

 

Proc

 

AP

 

 Time

 

 Hit Factor

 

B

 

Major

 

58

 

0

 

43

 

10

 

1

 

0

 

0

 

 

81.68

 

5.7786

 

M

 

Major

 

98

 

0

 

12

 

1

 

1

 

0

 

0

 

 

92.20

 

5.7484

 

When was the last time you heard a top PRD shooter say trading Alphas for speed was a good idea? 

Edited by Patrick Scott

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On 2/25/2018 at 3:34 PM, Patrick Scott said:

When was the last time you heard a top PRD shooter say trading Alphas for speed was a good idea? 

 

Lightheartedly, I have to say that it is hard to take much advice from the guys you are beating.  Even a few tenths would have changed things though.

Obviously the C's are not intentional and I can add here that this only worked out when shooting MAJOR.

If both were shooting Production or Minor PF, The B shooter would have lost.

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On 3/2/2018 at 11:35 AM, StratRider said:

 

Lightheartedly, I have to say that it is hard to take much advice from the guys you are beating.  Even a few tenths would have changed things though.

Obviously the C's are not intentional and I can add here that this only worked out when shooting MAJOR.

If both were shooting Production or Minor PF, The B shooter would have lost.

Minor ? 

All pcc shooters are ALL minor regardless of caliber. So based on the above score that is showing both MAJOR, in PCC it would be exactly the same outcome. The only time the C hits would come into account is if one shooter is Major and the other Minor. THEN the HF would be different due to the minor shooter giving up a point per C hit.

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Yes, I strayed from the main topic of the thread and was initially responding to a portion of a comment about needing A's,  with some data that showed different.

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