mastergunner Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 I am shooting USPSA using my S&W M&P 40. I have shot 180 gr bullets but thought if I went to a 155gr bullet I would have less recoil. I am using CFE Pistol powder and would like to get some help on a real lite load for a 155gr bullet. Is there such a thing or do I have to go back to a heavier bullet. I also have Win 231 powder that I could use if necessary. Thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHLChris Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Are you talking a minor load? Does it need to make 125PF, or are you just wanting it light? I have been building (down) a minor 40 load using 155gr bullets and Titegroup. I haven't had a chance to chrono my loads so I have a ladder all ready to go when I can get to the range. Check out this article: Make Right with ".40 Lite" CFE Pistol seems a bit slow-burning for this purpose. Titegroup is faster and may burn up better, being less flashy or gassy. There aren't many published minor loads, though. Or at least minor enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastergunner Posted March 12, 2017 Author Share Posted March 12, 2017 I guess I must be lost because I wanted to be shooting Major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 The lighter bullet is going to be more snappy than the 180. I know you don't have it, but N320 and a 180 grain bullet is the ticket for 40 cal major. Do a search on here for N320 40 S&W major and a ton of load data will show up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef15 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Lighter bullets generally feel harsher/snappier at the same power factor. Using a 4.25" M&P40 coated 180s loaded to just over major with any powder I've tried from American Select and faster has been quite controllable. None are especially soft, but they're not punishing in any way. 200s are down right pleasant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, GrumpyOne said: N320 and a 180 grain bullet is bestfor 40 cal major. Heavy bullet, fast powder and load it long (OAL). You do have to ensure there is no bullet setback - and that you've loaded long .... If you don't, you can get a Ka-Boom. I was flabbergasted when I first heard this, about ten years ago - seems counterintuitive to me - rifle shooting, the lighter the bullet, the less recoil, but probably NOT at the same PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 You might find this article of interest: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/power-factor-recoil-bullet-weight-gives-edge/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 6 hours ago, superdude said: You might find this article of interest: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/power-factor-recoil-bullet-weight-gives-edge/ Very good article. Thanks for posting it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 8 hours ago, superdude said: You might find this article of interest: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/power-factor-recoil-bullet-weight-gives-edge/ The author says that felt recoil is because of using less powder with heavy bullets, which is great info. Interpolating from that statement, we might also conclude that the faster the powder, the less powder will be used, and that will ALSO reduce felt recoil. While he tested only one variable (bullet weight), it sounds like if he had tested faster and slower powders, he would have found even more apparent recoil reduction with BOTH faster powders and heavier bullets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N3WWN Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 What I read, although I don't recall where, is that the power factor of the powder is added to the felt recoil. The weight of the gases is equal to the weight of the powder, but is going something like 4000 FPS.So, 5gr for a light bullet vs 4gr for a heavy bullet would result in 4 PF difference, even if the bullets have an equal PF.5gr x 4000 FPS / 1000 = 20 PF4gr x 4000 FPS / 1000 = 16 PF150gr @ 1000 FPS = 150 PF + 20 PF = 170 PF180gr @ 834 FPS = 150 PF + 16 PF = 166 PFThat's just playing with random numbers just to show an example.At any rate, in my 5.25" XDm, 3.5gr of W231 pushing a 180gr coated bullet works out to about 135 PF. This was my Limited minor load.With this low of a charge, I had to drop my recoil spring weight from 18 lb (factory) to 14 lb to get it cycle the slide reliably. YMMV.Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Hi-Power Jack said: The author says that felt recoil is because of using less powder with heavy bullets, which is great info. Interpolating from that statement, we might also conclude that the faster the powder, the less powder will be used, and that will ALSO reduce felt recoil. While he tested only one variable (bullet weight), it sounds like if he had tested faster and slower powders, he would have found even more apparent recoil reduction with BOTH faster powders and heavier bullets That's correct. That author has compared the recoil of different gunpowders in other articles. For example, see Table 1 here: http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/measure-relative-handgun-recoil/ (Do you want the full list of articles? ) 30 minutes ago, N3WWN said: What I read, although I don't recall where, is that the power factor of the powder is added to the felt recoil. The weight of the gases is equal to the weight of the powder, but is going something like 4000 FPS. This is correct, though there is disagreement about what value should be used for the speed of the gas exiting the barrel. It is discussed here: http://kwk.us/recoil.html The whole "powder weight is added to the recoil" thing is explained here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mont1120 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 For sure to reduce recoil while remaining major, go with the 180 bullet, and a fast power. I recently worked some chrono numbers at the range with another shooter, and the obvious winner to reduce recoil was VV N320. While it is expensive, we are only talking about 1.5 cents more per round. And the difference in recoil? It was incredibly easy to fire a mag without knowing what bullet had AS, Bullseye, or N320. Every time a 320 round was fired, there was no comparison. 320 is the winner hands down. I had read on this forum many times how well N320 works in .40, but I cannot believe the difference. Too bad I do not get the same results in .45. When I worked up loads in the .45, the same rules apply, heavier bullets with faster powders make major easier with less recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastergunner Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 I appreciate all of the answers. So I take that a heavier bullet will reduce recoil. Faster powder will assist with this? Since I am new to reloading (been reloading just over a year) I only own Win 231 and CFE Pistol. What would be a good powder that doesn't cost and arm and a leg like 320 (looks like it costs $42 a pound)? Does anyone have any load data with a specific powder that would allow me to shoot Major PF without huge recoil? Thanks for the help again guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I use Titegroup behind a 180gr and It works great for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastergunner Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 27 minutes ago, Pirate said: I use Titegroup behind a 180gr and It works great for me. How many gn's are running it with? Really light recoil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 The trick is to not buy N320 by the pound, but by the jug...a 4lb jug. Buying any powder by a single pound will cost exponentially more than buying in bulk. Powder Valley has N320 in stock, 4lb jugs, for $113.50 +$28.50 hazmat shipping...total of $142.00, or $35.50 a pound...buy two jugs and the price drops to $31.90 a pound, buy 3 and it drops to $30.75 a pound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) The 4000 in the recoil formula (or the 4700, depending on which manufacturer's data you use) is not fps. It is the velocity of sound propagation in the propellant gasses. The first thing you must do is differentiate between actual recoil and felt recoil. Using heavier bullets actually increases actual recoil, but feels softer to many, because the recoil is more of a push. Using a slower powder, within reason, also increases actual recoil, but may feel softer. For Limited Major I use fast powders and heavier bullets. My long time go to load was 180gr bullet over 3.6gr Alliant e3. It is clean, accurate soft and has no temperature sensitivity. That load makes 172PF. Loading down to 2.8gr gives 140PF and shoots to the same POI. Besides recoil, felt or actual, there are other considerations to think about. Let's keep everything at 172PF for now. A 180 is going to hit the hand less (feels softer), but the muzzle will rise more. So you are a touch slower for your second shot. A 155 will hit the hand harder (snappier), but the muzzle will rise less. I tried 165s before I quit limited, and felt I was back on target faster. I was more than willing to put up with the little more snap. I would not use Clays, Clay Dot, or International for 40 Major, because of the pressure spikeyness. I would use e3, WST, competition, and other powders in that speed range. BTW, Alliant e3 costs $138.95 per 8 pound jug. That's less expensive than N320 for a 4 pound jug. Edited March 13, 2017 by zzt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvc4you Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 4.9gr of N320 behind a 180 gr coated bullets produces very little recoil, you can also try Clays at your own risk. OAL 1.900. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastergunner Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 zzt thanks for the reply. So I take that I should try 165s with a faster powder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N3WWN Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Sorry, I missed that you were looking for major PF load data. My current Limited major load for my 5.25" XDm is 4.7gr of W231 pushing a 180gr coated bullet. This works out to about 173 PF. I don't have the load tweaked for my 5" 2011 yet, but I think it'll take another 0.1-0.2gr to confidently make major out of that gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, mastergunner said: How many gn's are running it with? Really light recoil? I use 4.4grns at 1.180 OAL out of my 5in 2011. Gives me a PF of 171 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 37 minutes ago, zzt said: The 4000 in the recoil formula (or the 4700, depending on which manufacturer's data you use) is not fps. It is the velocity of sound propagation in the propellant gasses. Do you have a reference for this? The link posted to earlier says it is the velocity of the escaping gas. The first thing you must do is differentiate between actual recoil and felt recoil. Using heavier bullets actually increases actual recoil, but feels softer to many, because the recoil is more of a push. Using a slower powder, within reason, also increases actual recoil, but may feel softer. The math says a heavy bullet will generate less recoil force than a light bullet when they are pushed to the same power factor. For Limited Major I use fast powders and heavier bullets. My long time go to load was 180gr bullet over 3.6gr Alliant e3. It is clean, accurate soft and has no temperature sensitivity. That load makes 172PF. Loading down to 2.8gr gives 140PF and shoots to the same POI. Besides recoil, felt or actual, there are other considerations to think about. Let's keep everything at 172PF for now. A 180 is going to hit the hand less (feels softer), but the muzzle will rise more. So you are a touch slower for your second shot. A 155 will hit the hand harder (snappier), but the muzzle will rise less. I tried 165s before I quit limited, and felt I was back on target faster. I was more than willing to put up with the little more snap. I would not use Clays, Clay Dot, or International for 40 Major, because of the pressure spikeyness. I would use e3, WST, competition, and other powders in that speed range. BTW, Alliant e3 costs $138.95 per 8 pound jug. That's less expensive than N320 for a 4 pound jug. mastergunner, you need to try different bullet weights to determine which feels best to you. different people prefer different recoil pulses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastergunner Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, zzt said: The 4000 in the recoil formula (or the 4700, depending on which manufacturer's data you use) is not fps. It is the velocity of sound propagation in the propellant gasses. The first thing you must do is differentiate between actual recoil and felt recoil. Using heavier bullets actually increases actual recoil, but feels softer to many, because the recoil is more of a push. Using a slower powder, within reason, also increases actual recoil, but may feel softer. For Limited Major I use fast powders and heavier bullets. My long time go to load was 180gr bullet over 3.6gr Alliant e3. It is clean, accurate soft and has no temperature sensitivity. That load makes 172PF. Loading down to 2.8gr gives 140PF and shoots to the same POI. Besides recoil, felt or actual, there are other considerations to think about. Let's keep everything at 172PF for now. A 180 is going to hit the hand less (feels softer), but the muzzle will rise more. So you are a touch slower for your second shot. A 155 will hit the hand harder (snappier), but the muzzle will rise less. I tried 165s before I quit limited, and felt I was back on target faster. I was more than willing to put up with the little more snap. I would not use Clays, Clay Dot, or International for 40 Major, because of the pressure spikeyness. I would use e3, WST, competition, and other powders in that speed range. BTW, Alliant e3 costs $138.95 per 8 pound jug. That's less expensive than N320 for a 4 pound jug. zzt how did you come up with this load data for Alliant when e3 is for shotguns? Since I have not been reloading long I would be interested in learning how you came up with this for future reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 It's supposed to be a replacement for Clays, just like ClayDot is. Start with a mid range Clays load and progress from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 2 hours ago, N3WWN said: My current Limited major load for my 5.25" XDm is 4.7gr of W231 pushing a 180gr coated bullet. This works out to about 173 PF. If you don't want to buy N320, I've also found WW231 or HP 38 works very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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